Let's discuss sexuality

I thought of myself as “two spirited” for a while, but apparently it’s the consensus among two-spirit Native Americans that the phrase has a specific cultural meaning/context and they’d rather not have other people confuse things by using it. So there’s that. “Bigendered” is the more generic term, which I sometimes use. Every few months I change my mind about what terminology I would use to describe my gender identity. “Nonbinary” always works though.

I don’t know what the “switch your gender permanently” thing entails; as a nonbinary there’s not a simple “other” to switch to. If it means switching the sex of one’s body while maintaining internal gender identity then absolutely. $10 million means never having to come in to work and explaining what happened, so the social awkwardness aspects are minimized. :slight_smile: I’d do it for free if there was no such awkwardness anyway.

That might also get into questions of whether “cis” and “trans” are binary terms themselves and don’t adequately fit everyone. I’ll own “trans” in the umbrella sense, without being transsexual or transgender in the strictest sense.

As far as sexual attraction goes, it does seem a bit weird to speak only in terms of straight/bi/gay when one’s gender identity is nonbinary. I am attracted to women, to feminine presentation and aesthetics (unless taken to frilly extremes), and not to masculine ones. The actual genitals of either sex range somewhere between “not very interesting” and a turn-off.

1 Like

It’s not my gender that’s the factor as much, but rather the act of changing. Obviously my wife and kids would be affected, but there’s also my evangelical parents and possibly a few others. There’s also the issue of changing for money, which could be a problem for many people.

Then there’s the question of how the other gender even lives. Presumably a transgender person changes their identity to suit how they see themselves, but if there’s no biological change and I just have to “live as a woman”, what would that actually entail? A lot of differences you see are cultural, and the biological characteristics would still be male. I don’t think anything close to the majority of women I know apologise a lot when they speak, for example, although I guess that could be more common in a corporate environment. Some men I know do. Is deference feminine? Should trans women accept this as a mark of womanhood? Do you, @chgoliz?

Honestly, I haven’t heard a discussion of gender that doesn’t leave me a bit confused about the whole thing. I’ve never really considered myself anything but male, but I have enjoyed a number of activities that some see as feminine - cooking, needlework, singing etc. I’m also the main childcarer in the family. Does that make me more feminine? It’s never really made me feel that way. My older brother is good at knitting, and used to knit for his friends while sitting in lectures at university. I sometimes bring my sewing with me on public transport, and a while ago I saw another guy doing the same thing. There are many things about masculine models and patriarchal cultures that I dislike and don’t identify with, and I particularly dislike the strict division between masculine and feminine identities. At my church youth group, the accepted wisdom was that boys and girls couldn’t just be friends, because it would inevitably become awkward. I did end up becoming good friends with one of the girls; inevitably, the youth group made it awkward even though neither of us had feelings for the other person. I would never have ended up with my wife if we hadn’t ignored similar ideas in the organisation we worked with at the time; we were good friends who respected each other for a long time before we developed any feelings for each other. I generally think the problem is with the culture, rather than my not fitting it. As far as I’m concerned, I’m biologically male and heterosexual, and the rest is what I make of it. People will draw their own conclusions, as they do.

My children are messed up, genderly speaking. My son likes My Little Pony, enjoys playing with dolls and braiding their hair and generally gets on better with girls his age. My daughter thinks poop jokes are the funniest thing ever. On the other hand, they both show a number of more stereotypical characteristics for their sex. My son wants to fight with me every evening and my daughter wants to dance with me (although sometimes it’s the other way around). They both like wearing beautiful dresses, playing with Lego and computers, doing stuff outside or helping me cook. I’ve never thought any of this had anything to do with their gender, but some people around them do.

I guess there’s the issue of gender identity that could be the clue, but I’m not really sure what’s behind it. If we’re going to leave sexual orientation completely out of your gender identity, what is it that makes you feel one thing or the other? I’m not doubting people’s own experience at all, I just find the whole thing so arbitrary and messed up that I can’t imagine aligning with either gender model that strongly (if we could even decide what those models are). I feel the same about my nationality. After being told that I’m not a proper Irishman and not a proper Brit for half of my life, I’ve seriously considered becoming German.

5 Likes

Yep, three little rugrats. Having the kids didn’t change my sexuality or thinking about sexuality, but it changed a lot of day-to-day dynamics. As @anon50609448 said, sex is often the last thing on the list, by necessity. If I believed everything I read in Cosmo, sex needs to be reprioritized nearer the top of the list! Sex is the way you maintain connection with your partner! Marriages fail because of lack of sex!

Well, I call bullshit. Marriages fail because people don’t think about what they’re doing. Period. They either let it all slide away or they go fuck someone else thinking that’s the right thing to do, and that poisons the well. I actively choose faithfulness to my wife:

  1. Because I love her. My admiration for her grows all the time as I see her with our kids and career and becoming a better person all the time.

  2. Anger that I may have towards her about something or other (why did you load the dishwasher that way goddammit you idiot?) is transitory, and more a reflection of me than it is of her.

  3. As I’ve gotten older (I’m 43 now) I have become calmer and more mentally stable. The little things that she does to try to knock me off my perch are pretty funny, and I do them back to her and then we have a big laugh… and life goes on.

  4. I want her to be happy.

  5. I wouldn’t trade our kids for $10 million or any amount of anything. To me, they are so cool to see growing, because they put me back in touch with purpose and meaning.

And so much more…

I well remember and told myself to remember the soul-eating loneliness that came with being single, free and able to fuck anyone I wanted to when I was a bachelor. I spent a lot of time improving my “skills” (if you will) with having lots of women in my life. And there were times I was having sex with a different woman every night of the week for many months… And the whole time… I felt lonely.

I wrote extensively about those feelings in my journal and shared them with friends. Sure, the loneliness was partly because I lacked a deep connection with someone else, but it was more because to manage all that activity left little headroom for me to examine myself and put myself to rights and stay involved in my own life around things other than sex and who it was going to be tonight.

I simmered all that heavy activity down to a slow burn in 2008 and actively put myself on wife-watch. Then a few months later, she showed up and I knew instantly that she was the right one for me. I already knew who I was looking for and was prepared to go years if I had to because I was unwilling to settle for Ms. Right Now.

All that to say, marriage isn’t perfect. Sometimes it sucks dog shit. Sometimes I do get to jonesin’ for the chase. Sometimes marriage is awful, the sex is awful and I regret ever having done it. But then… give it a little while and sleep on it, and I will remember all the good things (just look at my little daughter’s face!) and the reasons I chose this path and I understand why I’m here. Marriage has been the single biggest personal growth factor in my life apart from natural processes.

So yeah, marriage changes things. But you know what? Time changes things. Change is totally inevitable. It’s gonna happen whether you’re married or not. If you are thoughtful about life, then life is going to make you change: kids, no kids, married, not married. It can’t be avoided, and why would you want to stay single like in our teens and 20’s? It wasn’t idyllic unless you choose to forget all the negatives. So better to roll with it and jump on and see where life takes you, no?

7 Likes

I recognize it as an indication of having been socialized to be female rather than male in my culture (and many others), which is why I brought up the question about what does it mean to “change gender”.

4 Likes

The thought experiment is asking whether you would transition and live as a member of the opposite gender. The idea is to ask yourself how attached you are to your experiences as a member of the gender you are. When faced with the idea, most people I’ve ever spoken to seem to have a visceral reaction to it, like it just doesn’t seem right. It’s not really meant to induce a thorough cost benefit analysis, since the $10M isn’t on the table to begin with.

To me this is a flaw of how we talk about sexuality. People who do transition will often switch from straight to gay or vice versa, but it makes the terms seem a little silly. Nothing about who they were attracted to changed.

You do not live in Canada, do you?

Yeah, I thought it might be appropriative. I don’t usually use that term, I was just looking at a big list of terms at the time. Honestly I’m not sure if I consider myself bigendered, mid-gendered or agendered.

They don’t fit everyone, I don’t think. Cis is an actual thing, not just the absence of trans. I think there is plenty of room in there for something else.

I know a lot of people who feel that their children have inexplicably fallen into gendered stereotypes. My older daughters asked me one day, “Do I look beautiful?” as she twirled to show off the clothes she’d picked. I said yes, and she told me one of her classmates wouldn’t like that, because he doesn’t like beautiful things. The kids in her class are super divided into princesses/superheroes. It seems like there is a lot of interest among 3- and 4-year-olds regarding what it means that they are girls or boys, and that just latches onto whatever cultural options are available. Maybe that is cultural in itself as well, I don’t know.

2 Likes

That makes sense, and it’s another reason why I find the whole issue a little confused/confusing. A lot of the experience of being cisgendered would be a combination of the experience of biological gender combined with pressure to conform to certain gender roles. I certainly agree that deference is a value that is widely promoted for women, but it doesn’t seem to be inherent at all.

There’s a lot that I never liked about the male roles I was taught, but I never thought that this was because I really belonged to the other one. In a sense, no explanation is necessary - “why do you identify as trans?” can be answered “because I do” without any rationalisation for that, and I do support people’s right to be whoever they identify as. However, I don’t really get the idea that someone’s brain can be more female than male or a certain proportion between the two, or that a liking for things marked as masculine or feminine in a certain culture has any bearing on anything. Again, it’s not a criticism, just wondering what there is left when all of the cultural and physical experiences of being raised the other gender and having the other gender’s body are absent.

I think in my son’s case, he has some physical issues that make it more difficult to compete with the boys, while the girls are more verbal and that suits him better. Because of this, he’s more exposed to their cultural influences. He doesn’t like the constant political infighting between the girls, but individually they’re nice (the same is often true with the boys, but the group dynamic is more physical). We’re trying to toe a pretty fine line where he’s able to be proud of who he is and bring dolls to school if that’s what he wants to do, but he shouldn’t make a stereotype of himself either, even if some of the other kids suggest that his interests makes him a particular kind of person.

I think Germany is generally more gender neutral than the UK or USA, but it seems to be getting a lot less so. I really feel that there should be much less of a difference between boys’ and girls’ stuff at that age, and this ghettoising of girls’ toys in pink means that any boy is crossing the Rubicon and automatically femme if they pick up a toy from that side of the aisle. For their part, a lot of the toys for boys are kind of crap, too. Apparently the time up to about age 7 is really significant in establishing your gender identity, so it would be good if there was less binary essentialism in the toys that are available and kids didn’t get the idea that they were a different species from the other sex.

4 Likes

OK, I’ll bite. Would I transition to womanhood, a good surgery and all, for 10 million?

The question really has an undertone. How attached am I to my male identity? In my 43 years, I know what turns me on. Having sex with a beautiful woman. And yes, my dick is involved. Dick isn’t the entire thing, but it’s probably 2/3 to 3/4 of the fun. So, how attached am I to that body part?

I have tried to imagine what it’s like to have a vagina and to get fucked by a man. I can imagine how intensely pleasurable it could be. Like, it’s gotta be or women wouldn’t do it.

Do I have any idea about how it is? No. All of this is in my imagination. I have the external sex organ not the internal ones, apart from the prostate up in there somewhere.

Would I give it all up to be a woman? Sure but with a big if… the nerve endings from my dick would have to be preserved in such a way or enhanced, not just trimmed off and I’m left with what? Stumpy raw ends? No thanks.

I’d be a lesbian, though, because I am not into men. So, that part of my brain (or whatever, brain-body combo? all hippocampus?) would have to be converted too if the intent is that I completely switch sides and bat for the other team.

If, neurologically speaking, I could be a woman would I do it? Sure. It’s not a burning desire, but it sure would be interesting. I would not enjoy the sexism and misogyny directed my way, fuck that part. And I feel sad for all the crap that women have to face from bastards. I think I would double up on my aikido training and buy some guns and get extra deadbolts on my doors, and make some new friends to help out with safety issues. Anyways.

I guess my identity as a man is not really that ossified, is it? Well, this has been a process of discovery. So, the answer is, for 10 million and really good surgery, yes I’d become a woman.

3 Likes

:expressionless:

5 Likes

I don’t know what that response means.

I’m not sure either, but I wouldn’t have expressed the notion like that…

I’m certain that female physiology is capable of far more sexual pleasure, simply from observation. When pretty much your entire body is an erogenous zone, and orgasms can be sustained for a minute or more… dammit, too envious to complete the thought

1 Like

I was blunderingly trying to get to that point.

Females are much better wired for pleasure than males. Of course, acknowledging that there are plenty of avenues for blurring that line, with lots of physiological and psychological variation among us.

So, if I could be fully rewired as well as have the external hardware switched for the internal, then I’d do it. But if all it is is cutting the dick off and saying that’s that, here ya go kid! No thanks.

No.
Please.
Stop.

5 Likes

Nonmales.

All I know is, it’s quite catchy.

3 Likes

Sounds a bit like nonfemalesplaining.

3 Likes

Does the binary of females AND males bother you? Or is it only the former?

I have met a few people for whom these terms have troubling connotations. I’ve got to say, I don’t quite understand it, myself. I find the forced binary to be a bit tedious, but I never found either term to be pejorative. What does it mean to you? (If you don’t mind talking about it)

Hey, I’m just here to answer questions.

That’s a different thread. And we just hit 13k. 20k by 2016!!

6 Likes

Wait a minit, that one’s for asking. This one’s for answers. I think we need a thread to talk about each other in the third person, too. It could be fun.

1 Like

That would be asking questions, wouldn’t it? (Darn it, why can’t I stop?)

1 Like