Martial Law in Turkey?

A) Was it elected without irregularities at the ballot box?
B) Does the government function? (Versus say, Somalia.)

I never claimed it was perfect democracy or even non-authoritarian, or close to perfect in any way, but it’s a far cry from military interventions improving it.

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The legitimacy of democracy depends in part on the summation of local knowledge. But since I’m not a Turk, and not a member of Turkish society, it’s presumptuous of me to comment either way.

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Irregularities occur at our ballot boxes right here, too. The issue is more often whether they’re substantive enough to alter the results. As you say, it’s an issue of whether Erdogan is widely supported, which is why I’m generally okay with believing FP or MEQ or other sources when they say that Erdogan is generally supported by a majority of the population. I don’t think that’s in dispute by anyone. There is a lot of asterisking about whether it’s intimidation or media monopolization or a simple lack of viable alternatives, but it’s not like even his critics claim he’s unpopular.

Take this article for example:

http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/features/4-reasons-why-erdogan-is-still-popular_21411

Written by someone who’s hardly enamored of Erdogan, and if you check his Twitter feed, he’s been getting death threats from Erdgogan supporters. Here’s my problem: Coups are rarely if ever pretty.

At best, they’re bloodless coups like Musharraf in Pakistan that result in instability and economic insecurity, and represent a persistent threat to democracy in themselves. Musharraf voluntarily stepped down as Pakistan’s leader but the result hardly assures anyone that the people are in charge of the military instead of the other way around. My mother was living in Chile in 1973 when Pinochet took power in a CIA sponsored coup. The socialist president, Salvador Allende may have become less popular over the course of his presidency, but the alternative was a literal dictator. My own grandfather was arrested and thrown in jail, to be released later through coincidental family connections with the military. My grandmother had to flee the country. Pinochet was later accused of human rights abuses and it was only the fecklessness of the international justice system that let him die a free man.

How coups are an improvement on unpopular or authoritarian governments is something I don’t see. At best you’re getting a government that is forever subject to the whims of a praetorian military (which renders suspect any claims that a military junta exists solely to “restore democracy”). In the meantime all you get is violence, martial law, suspensions of rights, and real actual individual people suffer. But outside observers are all too happy to clasp their hands together and get dewey-eyed because the coup supposedly represents “our side” for various dubious values of “our side.” I have a real problem with that kind of short-sighted thinking. I don’t think it’s presumptuous of me to make that observation.

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:sparkling_heart::heart_decoration::heartbeat::two_hearts::heart::revolving_hearts::cupid::gift_heart::heart_decoration::heart_exclamation::two_hearts:

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I do think that US involvement in a coup would have been foolish in the extreme.

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I’m thinking agent provocateur rather than false flag

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:love_letter:

More than 6000 purged from the military, FYI:

Top officers at Incirlik Air Base arrested in Turkey coup attempt

the clashes within the Turkish society have consequences anywhere with a larger Turkish community - below is a video of a pro-Erdogan demo vandalizing a pro-Gülen youth centre in Gelsenkirchen, Germany.

the atmosphere is keyed up, the different organisations with a Turkish background position themselves rather loud and nervous

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Wikileaks published a dump of AKP mails, obtained about a week before the failed coup.

So far I’m not aware of more detailed analysis of the content, but it could be very interesting (and embarrassing for the Turkish government/establishment).


eta: I was too slow

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There’s that, but for the average American, the most pressing question is, “What impact will this failed coup have on Thanksgiving?”

Not all Americans! :wink:

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all True Americans?

Not all true Americans!

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The new york times published an op-ed from some anti-Kemalist guy.

Given the Gulen community’s hierarchical structure, all of this makes Mr. Gulen a prime suspect. Of course, the truth can come out only in a fair trial. Unfortunately, Turkey is not good at those — especially given Mr. Erdogan’s control over the judiciary and the ferocious polarization in the country today. But the United States government can try to negotiate with its Turkish counterparts to extradite Mr. Gulen, as Turkey’s government is now requesting, on the condition of a fair trial.

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Who ever was behind it (not Gulen, I’m guessing), I think it hardly matters now. It failed and Erdogan has turned this into his own coup.

Depressing.

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I quipped too soon. Apparently he’s a semi regular contributor (on Islam, the Arab World, etc)

Or that’s what it was all along.

Not any less depressing.

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