This whole show is a fascinating study on how it’s possible to elide over atrocities and be like, “but look how awesome this all was!”
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Exactly! The destruction of millions of people too often plays second fiddle to the cool gear. I mean, fuck that noise. It makes me sick to my stomach.
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So read the Wikipedia article to find out who I was talking about but not the work in question. Fair nuff. Read any of his work at all?
And no I certainly won’t even attempt to back his looney toons gender concepts. I started to read his book on the subject and could not finish it. But to the best of my knowledge his scholarship on Third Reich strategy has not in fact been shown to be incorrect despite the opening of archives and other materials found since the book in question was published. Fact is despite having some bizarre views, he still remains a respected military historian for his scholarship.
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And yet you’re handwaving it away, as you do so many other things in this topic. Logistics is a critical part of strategy, and van Creveld didn’t come into that subject area focus by accident.
Even in the Balkans situation, I’m sure he acknowledges that it was more an accomplishment of statecraft and diplomacy and good timing (in re: the coups in the region) than it was of Hitler’s military brilliance.
Oh, so these ultra-nationalists and right-wing populists are the benign and harmless type? If so, how does that make them different from the other ultra-nationalists and right-wing populists like Putin and Dolt-45 whose anti-Semitic activities you regularly downplay on this site?
When people earnestly indulge in stereotpyes, positive or negative, the context is always ignorance.
Some of his best friends might be Jews, but he’s still asking us to consider praising Hitler.
That explains a lot.
Citation, please. The ADL characterised the article as possibly supporting a hoary old calumny but offered nothing to refute the facts it contains.
You have no idea what my background is. Jewish or not, I know that kapos, collaborators and Quislings are a factor in any genocide, just as are apologists in the target group who are easily bought off during the run-up (all the more easily if they’re religious fundies).
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I answered your question. I’m not a german scholar or a military historian, but I’ve read enough about both Germany during the war to know that there are serious gaps between the historians view of nazi war strategy and the popular view, which tends to downplay the genocidal violence in favor of “cool” gear and some supposed genius strategy on the part of the nazi leadership. At the end of the day, they lost the war, thanks in large part of Stalin’s own nearly genocidal policies that threw people at the problem. And let’s not forget that the supposedly magnificent war machine in the Balkans were eventually partially turned back by a rag tag bunch of partisans.
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I was actually agreeing with you about the difference between dreck like the above PBS “documentary” and serious scholarship and thats why I pointed out a particular study that did not in fact come anywhere close to calling German strategy “genius” by a long shot. In the end dont we want quality history over hagiography and sensationalism?
@gracchus after 4 edits to your post by the time I’m typing this all I can say is you’re right, I dont know if you are a Jew or not and you haven’t said one way or the other that I’ve seen. Fair nuff. As for whether I’m a badass, Im short and weigh max 51Kg. I own no weapons and have never started a fight in my life. You got your ideas, I got my experience and I guess thats that. If you are right that I’m handwaving and apologizing for anti-semites well then its probably my life on the line in this case so I’ll have no one to blame but myself.
Which was my whole entire point in the first place. But I suppose I wasn’t clear enough. I’m against glorifying the nazis, because nazis weren’t some brilliant tacticians that conquered the world. They lucked and forced their way into the position they found themselves, in part through failures to grok that they were serious about their genocidal positions regarding the Jewish people and other “undesirables” in Europe. The overt and latent antisemitism of other European countries did not help in that regard, and explains how it took the invasion of Poland to get people to actually take the threat seriously. Of course, the lack of a response from the rest of Europe was also because they were reluctant to go to war, given how destructive world war one was.
We actually agree on that.
And I disagree with that. It’s not up to you to stop people from being antisemites, in part because it’s not a rational point of view. There is nothing rational about hating someone based on their faith or ethnicity. It’s just about one of the dumbest things that humanity came up with, if you ask me. You live in a nation-state, and it’s in part up to them to protect their citizens and non-citizen residents alike from internal threats as much as it is from external ones. It’s also NOT on you to try and convince anyone else that you deserve to be safe and to freely practice your religion. THEY have the problem, not you.
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I do a lot of grammatical corrections (former copy editor) and add things that clarify my base contentions, which are unchanged (otherwise I’ll add an explicit “ETA” in brackets). In case you’re suspcious, here’s the list of edits:
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Added working “badass” image (the first URL was broken).
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Added in response at top re: Creveld.
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Grammatical correction: “than it was of Hitler’s military brilliance.”
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Clarified that the ADL, while criticising the Politico article, did not debunk it.
No, we both have our ideas and our experience, as do others here (like a certain person more familiar with formal historiograhy than the both of us). If you truly want to base your relationships from a point of mutual respect you might acknowledge that you’re not particularly unique in having that experience. For example, here’s some reported experience of anti-Semitism in Japan, which was present long after its fascist period:
I wonder how a “harmless” political leader who asks us to consider praising Hitler coming into power in Japan might spread anti-Semitic memes more widely in the country?
Now that’s the kind of thing that earns my respect. It doesn’t make your positions any less foolish, but at least you’re willing to take the consequences. I genuinely hope this “harmless” right-wing ultra-nationalist group doesn’t attain any real power in Japan (as they have elsewhere) so that you don’t find out how quickly people you thought were impressed by your supposed position as an “Elder of Zion” can turn on you. It’s a lot less amusing and fun at that point.
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The current apologists for and those who downplay the resurgence of right-wing populism in the world today don’t even have that excuse. Which makes it all the more shameful.
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Also the general belief is that Hitler’s invasion of Yugoslavia threw off the pre-existing timetable for invading Russia. Losing precious months, diverting necessary supplies and tying down forces. Leaving the Germans to march on Moscow in horrific mud in the autumn and one of the coldest winters Russia had seen in decades.
Plus occupation of Yugoslavia was a complete and utter mess. Outside of Russia, it was the only place in Occupied Europe where partisan activity was a full fledged tangible threat to the German military in of itself.
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At least some of that was down to the nazis allies in the region (the Ustasha, especially, though the Chetniks weren’t exactly doing much good either). Once again, taking the time to violently and brutally suppress the population never helps one’s strategy in a war. All it does is help create opposition. Reminds me of that Belorus film Come and See, which is essentially the creation of a partisan solider. It’s a brutal film with only one logical conclusion at the end - hard core opposition to the nazis. I still think that’s one of the best films about world war 2.
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Interestingly enough, I had a great uncle who fled Nazi Germany before WWII by going to Shanghai as part of the Japanese plan to legitimize its conquest. He then went on to Kobe (which had a large German ex-pat population) then San Francisco. Just before the Pearl Harbor attack.
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Neither was I at first. Guess were just human and prone to err. One thing, I think its possible to reasonably study where the Germans were successful and not successful both tactically and strategically (big difference) in terms of military action entirely separately from the political grand strategy regarding the Nazi concepts of ethnicity.
True, I cant stop anyone. But I do talk to people and listen to them as well. Maybe I’m crazy or foolish but I believe talking at a human level, person to person contact and treating even “deplorables” humanely actually matters. Again it may be crazy or foolish for me to believe so but just that someone had a decent encounter with a Jew might actually matter.
Here specifically neither of those two things are a worry for me. Unlike in many countries we dont need an armed guard or soldiers at the local synagogue and the one single negative comment I’ve received (well near death threat but thats just quibbling) while visibly Jewish was not from locals.
But its important to point out that practice of religion is only part of the issue. Elsewhere we get targeted for existing whether we are observant or not.
You may think me the fool but I’ve never been under any illusions on this and was raised that blaming others for my own misfortunes was not the way to be. I make no guesses to try and divine the future, I’ve only presented my experience as a Jew in Japan. If other Jews here in Japan who speak and read Japanese (or even if they dont speak or read) wish to present their experience I look forward to reading it.
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Given how those concepts of ethnicity impacted strategy (and not only in terms of logistics) it becomes very difficult to separate them. As for tactical doctrine, it tends to fall victim to expedience and circumstance over the course of a war (if it doesn’t it’s a formula for defeat).
If the “deplorable” is advocating for long-discredited ideas like racism, sexism, fascism, etc. then they don’t deserve a “fair hearing”. Anyone trying to downplay the dangers of or trying to make excuses for the views and actions of those deplorables doesn’t get much respect from me, either (this includes anyone who gives them a platform and justifies it with a “free speech” argument).
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It can be helpful in changing hearts and minds, but not always. And if the state backs these sorts of ideologies, we know what can happen, that even well-meaning good people will stand by and let this happen. The only effective strategy is making sure they don’t get into power in the first place. I certainly don’t want to advocate for not talking to people, but at some point irrational views are immune to both reason and compassion.
I think sometimes that’s true. And I certainly don’t want you to stop doing that kind of emotional work.
That’s great. I’m glad to hear that. We do know, that historically, things can change, especially in tumultuous times like we’re living through. I’m also aware of the threat to my Jewish neighbors here in the ATL. I drive by several synagogues at least once a week, and have noted the high fences (which don’t exist around the adjacent Christian churches, and the occasional police presence out front. I also know that there is a history of violence aimed at the Jewish community here - Leo Frank back in 1915, a lynching carried out by the elite of Marietta (ATL suburb), as well as more recent bombings (related to one congregations strong support of Civil rights, in part):
I’m aware - which is why I noted not just practice, but ethnicity as well.
But you’re not to blame for others lack of humanity, either. You do what you can to change people’s minds about their sick views, but at the end of the day, it’s on THEM to understand how dangerous and sick their views are. If you ever had the misfortune of being caught up in a wave of antisemitism (God forbid!), that would not be your fault and I sure as hell wouldn’t blame you for the violence of others. It would not be because you didn’t reach out enough or weren’t kind enough or didn’t represent the Jewish people enough - you’re only responsible for yourself and others in your community that you can help. If you show up, be your best self, and people still think that the Jews are out to get them, it’s NOT your fault.
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And the first step in that strategy is a general recognition by civil society, including establishment institutions, that they are dangerous. Throughout the West we seem to be failing at that.
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The west is turning into one big fail whale…
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This may be one of, if not the, key to how the German military was hamstrung by the leadership in the execution of the war.
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