Men upset by cartoon

boing
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“Both wrong” is a concept that rarely seems to come up as a possibility in these mansplaining-splainings. One factor is surely the power gradient historically in favor of males, with symmetry favoring a corresponding comeuppance.

Reading your comment, I had to imagine what she could say to ease rather than increase the communication friction. Something as simple and civil as: “You know what, hold that thought. I want to look at it a while longer. Maybe we can talk about it later.” Of course, that’s not provocative at all, and definitely not funny, but it feels like it would also increase the likelihood of there being a later for that relationship.

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Yes, it’s very Jackson-Pollock-y, isn’t it. And that fits well, too, doesn’t it?

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Just read this in passing…do you really believe that women really could ever enjoy actual equality and fairness within a patriarchy? Maybe I’m too young but I’m not familiar with the idea of inverting the patriarchy, only smashing it…

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Why do the conversations have to be difficult?

MOST DON’T, or shouldn’t, anyway- But some will be. To give a common, not so life-or-death example, bathrooms.

Women spend 2-3 times longer in the bathroom then men do, according to most studies that have looked into that sort of thing (which is a surprising number, lol). Blame fashion or the fact that we have different plumbing, but it’s something we’ve measured and found a pretty solid difference.

So, do we wish for building codes to be fair, and provide ladies’ rooms with 2.5 the stalls as mens’ rooms,
Or do we wish them to have an equal number of stalls, and contend with long lines outside one but not the other?
Or do wish to avoid the issue by making all bathrooms non-gendered, which raises other issues?

That may sound like a silly example that we could probably solve easily enough- But when we start applying the fair vs equal question to things like “how much upper body strength should a firefighter be required to have?” or “should we encourage more men to go into child care, knowing that they’re more likely than women to be sexual predators?”, then we’re talking about stuff where actual lives are at stake.

As I said- Sometimes people can have very different ideas on how to best serve the same shared goal. In some ways, that’s harder than looking for a compromise with someone who wants the opposite as you.

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They told me that. I think they lie. :laughing:

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Absolutely not, and I agree that a patriarchy is an undesirable state- But I also think they would not find fairness in the (notedly very narrow and not at all representative) brand of feminism which seeks to smash the patriarchy for the sole purpose of replacing it with an equally oppressive matriarchy.

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How does that relate to being open and civil with one another, no matter what the issue may be?

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My takeaway (from the discussion here) is that we should use “condesplaining”, both because it is more accurate and because it doesn’t cause a knee-jerk reaction from men.
Okay then.
I’m still confused by one of the comments highlighted in the post:
“Gary Wheat “I wonder” in conversation is commonly interpreted as an invitation for help in understanding something. If this were a date and I had some insight about the painting to offer and was met with such a passive-aggressive response, I would certainly reconsider a second date”

  1. Do people regularly interpret wondering as “an invitation for help in understanding something”, rather than a step-off place for imaginative thinking?
  2. Is the response (caption) truly passive-aggressive?
  3. Does the commenter get second dates with his outlook? (Hm. This question may be just snark.)
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Exactly! That’s what I thought it was meant to evoke, him and especially his whole hypermacho shtick.

jackson-pollock-e1313071193997.jpg1600×1239 234 KB

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Hee hee, imagine him with a man-bun! Would Ruthie have liked that?

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I guess I find it odd that people keep bringing up what even you agree is not a representative or popular interpretation of feminism. I see and hear about it everywhere, but I have never met anyone who actually claims it…so why bother mentioning it at all in discussions about feminism?

It seems only to serve as something for those against feminism to point to in hopes of discrediting the idea.

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Ha. I think that whole question is obviated by the great likelihood that if he ever would’ve worn such a thing, it would only be during the morning after a raging drunkfest.

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But did he ever have enough hair to make one?

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A drunk painter of army tanks is not “hyper macho”. But I see your point.

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Nope, would have to be a falsie, pinned on as a prank.

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“Militantly masculine”?

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I heard a story once about a married couple and their first fight- Which was almost enough to break up over. Their issue was cultural, rather than gendered, but I think it’s a good illustration that being open and civil sometimes isn’t enough to get around preconceptions.

After they had been married for a few months, they put down an offer on a house. One day, just before they were ready to close, she overheard him on the phone with his brother, making plans for getting his parents here (I think it was from either China or India).

To move in with them. They had not discussed this beforehand.

Now, he was the oldest son, so obviously his parents were going to come live with him. It’s what you do. It’s what everybody does. There is no possible way that everyone involved wouldn’t have known this from day one, because again, it’s just how it works. I mean, even implying that he wouldn’t take them in, would be downright offensive.

Of course, from her perspective being an American, that’s not how it just automatically works. We don’t do that here- At least not without some serious conversations on the subject.

This is a couple who was willing to communicate openly and honestly- When they realized there was something they needed to communicate about. But each of them had a cultural blindness which meant it never even occurred to them that this was something their partner would feel differently about.

And I think that men and women largely tend towards having similar anthropocentric blind spots. It’s not that they aren’t willing to communicate, it’s that there’s a tendency to assume that they’re communicating about the same thing, using points of reference which they both possess. I mean, isn’t that the entire theory behind being unaware of one’s privilege?

[quote=“Sagoli, post:252, topic:96005”]
I guess I find it odd that people keep bringing up what even you agree is not a representative or popular interpretation of feminism. I see and hear about it everywhere, but I have never met anyone who actually claims it…It seems only to serve as something for those against feminism to point to in hopes of discrediting the idea.[/quote]

Yeeeeaaaaaah… I do kind of have some close personal experience with someone like that. It’s always been a very small group, but they tend to be very vocal, and when you add in the right wing echo chamber, well, you’re right- it’s the kind of person they love to point to for exactly that reason. It’s the same reason ISL gets a lot more press than the Muslim clerics that are fighting them.

In this one specific context, I brought it up because someone raised the question of whether I described myself as a feminist- And that personal experience was relevant to why it took me a long time to embrace the term without a negative connotation to it- Which for the record, I did change my position on.

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Placed by Ruthie while was he passed out?

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AHA! Is there, actually? When I talk to people, men and women, the topic of our conversation is made apparent at the very beginning of it. Otherwise, aren’t people just talking at each other, not actually communicating?

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He looks so young there.

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