Michael Moore says Trump will use pandemic to cancel election

There is an important difference between terms in the Constitution that prohibit something, but require action on the part of one body or another to act on it, and automatic clauses. The dynamics of presidential elections are automatic. If there’s no election, the president’s term ends on Jan 20 of the new year. Period. It’s automatic. The States get to run elections, and determine electors. That’s not in the hands of the federal government, the Congress, or even (arguably) the SCOTUS. There is no action that the Executive Branch, the Senate (alone, without the House), or even the SCOTUS can take to invalidate an election when the States have determined electors and the electors have chosen a new president. Even Gore v Bush was only unsuccessful because it asked the court to invalidate Florida’s result. The default is to accept the state’s determination of the winner.

As I’ve mentioned before, the entirety of the hundreds of thousands of federal government non-appointed employees are free to ignore any order or request from the Trump administration if he loses the election. Period. He can declare that he won, or that there was cheating, or whatever he wants. The civil servants (who mostly hate him) can completely ignore him and his cabinet. Since we know that they are completely worthless at doing things themselves, that’s it. That’s the end.

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Yes you can:

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I think that most Republicans would cheer it on and most “Independents” would look the other way and try not to be conspicuous. That’s what happens now when the police do it.

Support the Troops! Don’t you support the troops?

Against white supremacists only, and also that’s the wrong thing to do for actual domestic terrorists killing people and raping children.

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They don’t need to take him into custody. They just need to follow protocol and treat him as the ex-President. There’s already protocol in place for the transition. His detail goes from being the presidential detail to an ex-presidential protection detail.

Meanwhile, the rest of the government just ignores him. That’s what happens during a transition of power. Yes, I would expect unrest from the gun-toting Trump supporters, but it’s important that there is only one section of the government with over 50% approval for Trump: ICE & CBP. Not the military, not the FBI or DOJ, not State or CIA. None of them. And they’re all more informed of the Constitution that they swore to uphold than the average American. Much more. At least, they’ll just ignore him. At most, they will arrest him.

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I love that. How about Trumptatortotship?

Seriously, I wouldn’t put anything past the shit-filled orange dumpster-fire. Closed elections and open churches.

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Although only just, in that case.

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And when he decides not to leave the Oval Office? You think the whole Secret Service is going to instantly and unquestioningly transition from “people who will put their bodies in between the President and anyone who tries to hurt him” to “people who will physically drag him out of the building to make room for the next guy?”

There’s no precedent for a U.S. President who refuses to cooperate with a lawful transition of power. Anyone who thinks we be confident such an event would go smoothly and peacefully is fooling themselves.

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But, crucially, much lower support in leadership. The military drills it into the heads of every soldier the importance of chain of command. If the brass say to ignore him, the officers will say it, and the grunts will obey.

It’s not the Iron Throne. In 1814, when the British captured and burned the White House, did General Robert Ross become President? Nope. It’s a room with a desk. There is no inherent power to it. Again, they might just start charging him rent, or they might kick him to the curb, or they might arrest him for trespassing. Could go either way, but staying in the building doesn’t make you President.

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Who’s going to stop him? Congress? He already has enough impeachable offenses to be ousted several times over and absolutely nothing has happened.

What are they going to do? Take it to the Judiciary?

McConnell has spent the entire four years he’s controlled the Senate doing nothing but stack the courts with Right Wing judges. He’s done this because it’s the end game move. You don’t need to control the legislative branch if you control how everything it produces is interpreted.

This country is ow3n3d, and it would be super great if the opposition party stopped pretending like they’re in a fair fight. If by some x-mas miracle the Slice Of Wet Toast the Democrats think everyone will vote for inspires enough people to get off a couch in such great numbers that the GOP or its proxies can’t just outright steal it, we’re gonna see Right Wing violence the likes of which haven’t been on display since the Civil War.

The Confederacy wants a rematch, and there’s no guarantee it’ll go the same way this time.

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I’m not worried that Trump’s refusal to participate in a peaceful transition of power would legally make him the President. I’m worried that Trump’s refusal to participate in a peaceful transition of power would lead to a huge fucking mess that could potentially trigger massive acts of violence across the country.

There’s zero precedent in this country for such an occurrence, and I don’t like to contemplate how it would be likely to play out.

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To own the libs!

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But that’s not Trump somehow holding onto the presidency. That’s Trump leading a rebellion against the lawful government of the United States. It’s treason territory. When it comes down to it, there’s one thing that defines Trump even more than stupidity; it’s cowardice. He doesn’t do shit on his own. He doesn’t lead. He’s more comfortable sniping at people who can’t strike back at him than taking anything on directly. All it would take is one or two people pointing out that treason is a capital crime and he’ll shit his pants and slink away. He operates by saying vaguely threatening things that his followers take as orders, that he can later deny. I would expect some of that; he whines about the validity of the election and some militia somewhere does something stupid and violent. You bet. But that doesn’t even closely resemble him holding onto presidential power.

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thank you for doing that, Ugh! I was thinking on those lines a wee while back but couldn’t be arsed to look it up. :wink:

To take that scenario further, the results arent official until they’re tallied by the sitting VP. I could see a scenario where Pence is a good little puppy dog and refuses to certify the election.

But then, those blue states listed above (and let’s be realistic NV, MD, WA, & OR would also hold elections as DukeTrout pointed out above) would also elect US Representatives. 257 of them, by my count. Well over the 219 required to have a quorum. They’re sworn in on Jan 3. With a democratic majority Nancy is re-elected as speaker. on Jan 20 Trumpy and Pence’s terms expire at 12:00 noon. According to the Prez line of succession: hello President Pelosi.

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You have far more faith in rule of law than I do. The Constitution only matters if some person or persons will back it up. The one who is supposed to do that has already shown he does not give a fuck about it. Emoluments, checks and balances, foreign interference. He’ll take it all! No, there will be some hokey national emergency, or “election fraud” (of course, defined as Trump losing) and boom, election scrapped. What happens next will be the key, but i am not particularly hopeful.

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Oh boy, if he decides to try and suspend the election, I’m really excited to see how the late-night talk show hosts skewer him over his ever-increasing dictatorial behavior and the deaths that come of it! Super pumped for their hum-dinger zingers they deliver via their webcams at their impenetrable mansions they’re stuck in because the President’s incompetence meant a pandemic spread unchecked! That’ll show Drumpf! That’ll show T. Rump! That’ll show Cheeto Hitler for sure! /s

But seriously: We are living in fucking unprecedented times right now. If Trump decides to suspend the election, we’re in even more uncharted territory. That likely leads to his Q Cultists going out and raising hell as he gets stripped of his power, people getting killed, and the collapse of some big institutions. I’m not excited to see clickbaity articles with titles like “John Oliver Just Delivered The Most Epic Takedown of Trump’s Treason; This Is True #Resistance”.

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The right projects constantly. The quickest and most accurate way to figure out what they are up to is to listen to what they accuse others of.

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So you are saying that Trump would need death squads, but all he has are armed idiots willing to kill people with the slightest pretext

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Yeah, there are multiple points where Trump trying to cancel the election to stay in power runs afoul of procedure, the law and the constitution. I’d be feeling more sanguine about that being likely to stop him, however, if he weren’t getting away with blatantly, unquestionably violating the law on a regular basis. No one seems to actually be responding when Trump does things like that.

Then you have Brian Kemp cancelling the state supreme court elections so he can directly appoint someone, after Republicans added extra seats to the court. (The court largely recused themselves, with the remainder going along with the plan.)

Which he has no power to do. More importantly, perhaps, I don’t see how he would do it, given that elections aren’t run nationally, ultimately. This perhaps is the biggest stumbling block the idea - he can’t just declare them closed and have that “order” have any effect. At least some states would just continue with elections in the absence of a compelling reason not to. (Though this may be worse - only “blue” states vote, Trump loses big, declares results invalid… or only some swing states get voting closed and Trump wins, declares the invalid results valid…)

You know what else Congress controls? The firing of the I.G. There’s a legally mandated 30-day period of congressional review when the president wants to get rid of whoever is in that position. What actually happened? The guy showed up for work and found himself locked out of his office without warning, no congressional review. Blatantly illegal, yet still being treated as a done deal.

I think that there are no mechanisms in between Trump and elections that would allow him to stop them directly is going to be the bigger impediment. Instead, the Republicans are gearing up for massive voter disenfranchisement and intimidation.

The earlier it’s done, the more resistance that builds up before the point when elections would happen. Create chaos nearer the election and I suspect more people are willing to accept it, just so there’s someone in power when the new term is supposed to start, because the uncertainty would be treated as worse than the rejection of democracy.

Yeah, except that the right-wing created boogie-men that were complete fantasies, and Trump actually talks about doing the shit we’re worried about (or at least talks about doing something adjacent). Also: look at all the shit the right accused Obama of doing or planning, and how much of that Trump has actually done. It was projection and a warning.

Exactly. Like emoluments. Oh, oops.

Yeah, I think that’s not just more likely, it’s a certainty. (I mean, they’re already doing it.) However, I can see Trump creating so much chaos around the elections that the outcome is treated as if it’s in doubt, the Supreme Court weighs in, and we’ve got Bush v. Gore all over again. (I.e. the court makes a totally partisan ruling that benefits Trump, despite not having a legal leg to stand on, and he wins despite being the clear loser.)

Except that given who owns most of the guns in this country (and have a willingness to resolve issues using them), the ammo box is going to be utilized by the authoritarian followers trying to make sure there’s no voting, to support Dear Leader.

Stochastic death-squads?

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It’s charming that you think this is still a nation governed by laws. I hope you’re right.

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