So, we should just pat them on the back for not being out and out nazis? Are they really so ignorant on what they are espousing? I agree we should engage them on what they do, but let’s not give them a pass by saying they have nothing to do really with rabid puppies. Sure, rabid puppies might have subverted the issue, but maybe there shouldn’t have been an issue to subvert in the first place… Why are they so upset that women and people of color are getting recognition for their work? Why are they pissed that sci-fi and fantasy are discussing issues that many of us care about and getting recognition for doing so? Why is inclusivity some how political but exclusion in the name of “apolitical” not?
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If the price of prosecuting Cheney is letting Bush go, it’s worth it.
That’s a weird conflation. A very “girly” show featuring strong, independent females solving their problems through kindness and tolerance? Seems like that’s everything Beale hates.
I’m struggling to think of a more coherent response to the “aspie” crack than “hey, fuck you, too.”
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[quote=“woodfish, post:123, topic:56166, full:true”]
I don’t know, it seems more like here is your Texas GOP and here is your New York GOP. Same party, different slates and spins. [/quote]
In reality we’re talking more GOP and American Nazi Party.
Are we to assume they all listen to industrial because Skinny Puppy precedes the lot? I think it’s more like the Rabids are either as lacking in creative imagination as individuals of their ilk usually are (I mean their whole modus operandi is to crudely copy another group’s strategy) or seek to piggyback on the brand of the original campaign and so have chosen to pastiche their logo. I mean, they have basically added spikes and sharp teeth, and an explosion. Is it not simply a naked ploy to skim off the more teenaged, more disgruntled, more aggressive supporters from the Sad Puppies?
If you want an explanation at a level that can be understood by a 5 year old, I will have to disappoint you. I’ll resist the urge to make a remark about the request clarifying the source of our disagreement, though, because I hope I know what you really mean.
They are two coalitions of groups with superficially similar aims and methods. Both are wrong, but they’re wrong for different reasons.
Rabid Puppies, maybe. Sad Puppies have quite clearly stated that they want ‘ideology-less’ which might mean that they ought to listen to Slavoj Zizek’s short treatise on ‘They Live’ (i.e. betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of ideology) but is not really in the same league.
[quote]
complaining that you could no longer judge books by their covers, and that science fiction had changed to reflect the world since the 1970s.[/quote]
No problem here - except I’d argue that you’d have to go a lot further back to find SF that was bereft of ideological content and doubt it’s really possible at all - where it is apparently missing is more a result of the reader’s historical ignorance.
I cannot understand why the identity of the individual or the specific role/puppy group is withheld at this point unless it is in the interests of deliberately conflating the two puppy groups and having one held responsible for the excesses of the other.
This bit seems a fairly accurate description fo what people are tweeting.
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Come on, you know that’s a straw man.
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If Cheney went off and formed ‘the Nasty Republicans’, did an elephant logo with spikes and tattoos shooting some dude with a shotgun, and then shat all over Bush’s manifesto with his own manifesto getting way more points executed on, then maybe.
That’s a possibility, I’m willing to concede. I don’t think it will help your argument though, to engage with what you think someone might be thinking, rather than what they actually say.
No, it’d be a fair response. I’ll probably spend the rest of the thread apologising for it.
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Two separate slates? VD’s is built upon the Sad Puppies’ slate and duplicates a lot of it; he just pimped up his own publishing company in his version. And you’re ignoring the fact that the SPs invited him to join them.
I won’t disagree that VD is worse in almost every respect, but that wasn’t the question; what was originally asked was, why are they being grouped together? And that’s the answer, because they grouped themselves together.
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Really? I just see no reason to give them a pass for actively attempting to assert their “exclusive rights” to see themselves in popular culture. Sure, they might not hate women or people of color, but they seem pissed off about those categories of people being included in these awards–other wise, what are they so sad about?
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So, this is the Puppy version of “bad cop, worse cop”?
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I think they’d probably ask what it is about swashbuckling ray-gun adventures that women and sci-fi fans of colour can’t enjoy just as well as they do.
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I’d submit that its entirely like that women and people of color indeed DO enjoy them… hence, their desire to write in those genres of fiction? But what’s wrong with embracing those genres and writing works that also reflect ones own life. How, exactly does works that address political questions from within the genre do damage to it?
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Not sure that I am putting words in their mouth, but describing what they DID write. The SP side is very clear they want to eliminate discussion of complex social issues in Sci-Fi because they straight up don’t like it or agree with the position taken by many authors. The RP goes beyond saying they would prefer to not hear about these topics and asserts that such Sci-Fi is likely destroying society by promoting equality.
Sci-Fi has long been a place where society can discuss topics that are frequently impossible to openly discuss without repercussions (e.g., Boko Haram kidnapping girls from schools). Sad Puppies seeks to silence this avenue of discussion whereas Rabid Puppies goes much farther. Both are inextricably linked and equally evil, in my opinion.
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Obviously there is a common origin, but at which point does a second logo and group name become necessary if they are a single coherent force?
Because VD is, by his own boasting, a very ALPHA male. That dude does not want to follow some other Alphas or Betas. Plus, his flaming sword scares the Sad Puppies.
Why are you asking me? Ask the Puppies.
There’s a SF discussion of Boko Haram kidnapping girls? And this can’t be discussed in mainstream society?
I think we are in total agreement that both are wrong. However I think addressing RP’s ills to SP is like trying to promote equality in recruitment at your employer by haranguing the CEO about female genital mutilation.
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