Because you’re the one arguing they should be grouped together, while they have fairly clearly indicated that they consider themselves to be separate groups.
I’m guessing that I’m meant to infer something from this, but I’m not sure what it is.
An Alpha male whose contribution is to clone the strategy of someone inferior in ideological commitment to him?
I thought flaming swords and really obviously evil bad guys was exactly the sort of thing the Sad Puppies wanted? Delivered by the truckload, it would seem…
Also, please PLEASE can he be referred to as ‘VD’ for ever and ever?
You are missing my point - SciFi has long been a place where controversial social topics can be addressed without being lynched, ran out of town, etc. There is plenty of need for SciFi to keep this role in today’s world. In some corners you could be beheaded or stoned to death for discussing ideas that you might be able to explore in SciFi. Boko Haram is just one example from contemporary society.
No, SP are trying to remove any social commentary from award winning SciFi, whereas RP are linking equality and the discussion of equality to the downfall of Modern Civilization. It is like the difference between the folks that silently let hate groups exist and those that hang up fliers for them around town.
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Somebody should Santorum this dude’s name 
He self-selected to be a VD.
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I’ve indicated why they’re grouped together, because that was the question. You may as well argue that — to pluck a completely random example from nowhere — that since Churchill & FDR and Stalin consider themselves separate groups they shouldn’t be grouped together under the term “Allies”.
Clearly, we do that because it is convenient to group them together that way. Except when it isn’t, and then we don’t. When I’m talking about VD, I talk about him; when I want to talk about the Sad Puppies, I’ll talk about them; and when I want to talk about the whole together, possibly because I can’t be arsed to parse out who exactly is responsible for what, I talk about the Puppies, except when I slip and call them all Sad Puppies.
It’s not that confusing, really, most primates should be able to understand the principle.
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The question is, why did he consider that an improvement on TB?
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Thank you for the welcome, and I apologize if I come off as a single issue ranter, but reading the article was like a punch in the gut.
Although really, I should have remembered that an artists personal beleif system shouldn’t cancel out what is true and good in their art, and not been so emotional.
And I will check out some of the other stories, I beleive that Accuracy Should Triumph Over Victory, but whether I stay or go is kind of up to you folks.
I hate to do this, but I’m going to assume that with tensions running so high I’m going to have to be as clear as possible if I hope to communicate.
Calling Larry and Brad racists, or a white supremacist group, or even members of such a group is wrong. It fails on a factual basis. It is untrue.
First, because I’ve read racist literature, (because I read banned books), and have found that racists cannot disguise their basic world view. When a person is stupid enough to beleive skin color is the overriding factor that determines worth, they can’t hide it.
Second, regardless of conspiracy gossip / urban legend conspiracy theory, people who are actually racist celebrate that fact, it is part of their identity, not something to hide.
Next, claiming Larry or Brad pushed a slate by politically pure nominees is at best a stunning misunderstanding, again, reading what Torgersen and Correia actually said, shows that they aimed at the exact opposite. That their chief complaint is largely that to much attention is paid to ideology and not enough to enjoyability.
You may not agree with their complaint, but any such disagreement doesn’t change what they’ve actually said.
As to Mr. Beale…Since you referenced Mr. Sandifer, I’m sorry but he’s one of the sources of my misgivings, when it comes to massaging statements to justify his assertions. I can expand on that if you would like. But I’m not here to defend Mr. Beale, I’m saying I have doubts that his enemies claims are entirely accurate.
So again, thanks for the welcome, I don’t really know if I will fit into this community or not. Really, if membership requires me to hate people, or especially hate people based on anothers interpretation of their views, then tell me now and I’ll save us all some time.
And to Mr. Doctorow, after sleeping on it I realized I might not have been clear, but just on the strength of your published fiction and what little I know about your political activism, I appreciate your advocacy of liberty, decency and rationality.
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Our “claims” are based entirely 100% on VD’s own fucking words.
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This kind of dismissive contempt fuels my doubt so if you’re trying to convince me…
On the other hand laughter is healing so, you’re welcome
You’ve picked a salient example, since Churchill and FDR and Stalin split into ‘Churchill and FDR, and Stalin’, which seems to reflect the trajectory of the Puppies, too.
Larry and Brad may not be racists, but they do not want to see complex social issues explored in their Sci-Fi. If they had their way, many classics would have never been nominated for Hugos (e.g., Dune, Starship Troopers, Venus Plus X, Stranger in a Strange Land - all from 1962 or earlier). A side effect of their view, intentional or not, is to deprive Sci-Fi from recognizing some of the best that Sci-Fi can offer: using a science fiction setting to explore current and perhaps forthcoming issues in society. If I want their type of Sci-Fi, I jsut read it but I don’t need to give it an award for great literature. And the basic fact that they have a problem with the discussion of social issues raises the issue as to why? Why does it diminish your enjoyment of the story?
VD needs no enemies to make him look bad. Just read his own words! Do I need to link to his own page again where he justifies the Taliban shooting of a girl because in the end it protects their society’s demography from imploding because there are not enough alpha males for educated women to marry so they don’t marry and don’t have kids and thus destroy society. Those are his words. And that is just one example.
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Not my example, I should say. One of the Sad Puppies — I forget which — explicitly compared the Sad Puppies allying with Day as Churchill and Roosevelt allying with Stalin. (I lied about it being a random example. )
(Which makes the rest of us Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo, I guess. Way to go for the Godwin, guys!)
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But that’s the problem, if your hatred is based 100% upon his words are they based upon 100% of his words?
That difference, between an interpretation of one thing in the worst possible light, and some other statement that directly contradicts that interpretation, is the kind of thing that I’ve learned to be leery of.
And honestly, the more hatred and hostility I see directed at anything I’ve become interested in, the more cautious I become.
I’m sure L Ron Hubbard would be grateful for your support.
Maybe on the planet you’re from, but here on Earth, racist groups misrepresenting their position is commonplace.
A bit obvious, this one.
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That’s an impractical standard. If someone hates me — shocking thought, I know — because of something I’ve said, they don’t actually need to trawl through everything I’ve written and said and done to see it in its full context. That dumb remark I made about star-bellied Sneetches doesn’t really need much context to justify star-bellied Sneetches hating me, or at the very least, demanding an apology.
Even if we lived in a world where all such information was available to the determined internet stalker researcher, or we airily allowed that it was only the 1–5% of our lives that actually is on the web that you need, it’s still an unreasonable standard. Who has that kind of time, even with intelligent search engines?
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A hilarious example, if only because VD ends up being Stalin.
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Are you fucking kidding me here.
And honestly, the more hatred and hostility I see directed at anything I’ve become interested in, the more cautious I become.
Riiiiiight. You went from “enemies’ claims” right to “hate” and “hostility”.
What “hate” and “hostility”? Be specific. Hate and hostility are pretty big claims themselves. Please expand, and be specific about what, exactly, you are referring to when you claim that there is “hate and hostility” being aimed toward VD.
You keep moving the goal posts, and being weirdly vague It’s all very weasely. You seem to be trying to claim you’re not defending VD or the puppies, and yet…hmm…
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Well since they may not be racists don’t you think it might be prudent to not label them as such? I mean, isn’t unwarranted character assassination pretty much a bad thing?
As to your opinion about their opinion on complex social issues, I think you’d have a hard time making a case to an impartial jury. That’s just my opinion based upon Larry’s novels, Brad’s short stories, and a few weeks of their blog posts and comments.
And since Larry has asserted that Starship Troopers wouldn’t be nominated today because it wouldn’t be PC enough, I think you might withhold judgment on the rest. I don’t remember any criticism of the stories you list, and I think you would find these stories form the standard when they say recent stories haven’t measured up.
Again, I haven’t found an categorical dismissal of social issues as an appropriate topic, what Larry and Brad have specifically complained about is the message overshadowing or replacing the story.
I’ve read some of the later Xanth novels recently, books that devote a huge amount of time to exploring all kinds of social issues, but that doesn’t replace the story, the exploration is the story, if that difference makes sense to you.
As to Beale, sure link away, just realize I’m going to read as dispassionately as possible, and concentrate on what he’s actually said and the context he’s said it in.
Fair enough. I appreciate it.
