Goddamned fucking war. I just wish people who look back on something like that could get together and say “fuck war” instead of saying, “Your great-great-grandfather killed my great-great-grandfather and I’ll never forgive you!”
My father once said, “I don’t worry that people who forget history are doomed to repeat it. I worry that people haven’t forgotten history and are eager to repeat it.” (It was regarding the Troubles in Northern Ireland, but it’s applicable elsewhere)
Except that it’s explicitly wrong. The Confederates wished to preserve slavery and white supremacy. It was never a symbol of anything else BUT that. You saw a resurgence during of the civil rights era to signal defiance to supreme court decisions that made segregation illegally. But it has that meaning from the start. No question at all that that is the case. the only people arguing against that are people who believe a willfully distorted view of history.
And the nazi flag was always the nazi flag. The Swastika symbol itself can be divorced in particular contexts, but not the flag.
It’s a disingenuous talking point made because one can’t argue against the stated, unarguable reason for the Civil War (slavery, white supremacy) so instead one muddies the waters talking about why individuals fought- which, as you say, is irrelevant.
I mean, if we’re going to be brutally honest, what gets men to fight in wars is pure cowardice - a fear of going against social pressure, of being branded a coward, ironically. That fear overrides fear of death - which, as “immortal” youths, doesn’t even usually occur to them - and distaste for killing. (There’s also some toxic masculinity in the mix - proving their manhood and bringing “glory” to themselves by murdering a lot of people.)
Also, this ignores the fact that the was a fair amount of desertion during the war (on both sides, with the south having a higher rate than the north):
https://teachinghistory.org/history-content/ask-a-historian/23934
And there were bread riots in the south:
And there were strong holds of unionism within the CSA, not just in the border states, either… but deep in Appalachia, as the working class people of that region did not feel represented by the elite whites who controlled literally everything in the southern economy and in southern politics:
Christ- what a desperate asshole Haley is.
Let me spell it out - you’re not going to be Donnie’s veep.
I feel like remembering the individuals who fought is very important. I didn’t wear a poppy for Remembrance Day (Canadian Veterans’ Day) when I was young because I thought we were glorifying war. I wear one now for the humans who died in the trenches.
The question is, does waving a confederate flag honor the people who fought and died in the civil war? And I don’t understand how the answer could possibly be “yes”. Because those soldiers didn’t die for slavery, and they sure as hell didn’t die for segregation in schools in the 1960s (thanks @anon61221983 for injecting a dose of reality in the history of the flag).
Don’t forget a State’s right to supercede the rights of another State…
In service of slavery.
You forgot “losers” on that list.
I agree. My point is to co-opt the language and fantasies that conservatives are using (since they’re history and fact averse, apparently) and say, “Okay, in your worldview, it used to mean this. But now, by your own admission, it clearly means this.”
preserving . . . the red white and blue
The dumbest thing about this, is that this Cupid stunt thinks ANYONE is fooled by her blather. Even her base knows she’s full of crap; they just don’t care, or even heartily approve.
Of course, it’s not even a serious discussion of why individuals fought either - just bringing it up is purely a distraction from the uncomfortable facts of why the South fought the war.
I learned some family history about a branch that lived in the South during the Civil War - apparently they were on the side of the Union, and the local battle they were in involved a rather pathetic showing by the Confederates. (But it stilled allowed my ancestors to become valiant “war heroes” despite barely having to fire a shot.)
Apparently in the UK it’s absolutely become that in recent years, taken over by right-wingers as a part of a war-glorification narrative. So that wasn’t a bad instinct, really. And maybe the poppies don’t always have an element of that to them, but they do have a certain amount of ambiguity to what they mean, allowing for a strategy that involved glossing over over what a brutal, pointless clusterfuck the first world war was.
I’m amused that the real Confederate flag had to be redesigned, as it contained a large field of white (explicitly representing white supremacy), but the colored elements were easily obscured as it hung on the field, causing it to resemble a surrender flag…
There’s no way the historical or ahistorical flag represent anything but white supremacy - either the 1860s or 1906s versions of it.
Just a point of clarification, as one might get called out on it in the wild, but he designed the 2nd national Confederate flag, which incorporated the Battle Flag. But this and countless other quotes by Confederate founders makes it clear the Confederacy was based on white supremacy.
Speaking of stupid stunts.
Dude, learn to read a room!
Nothing new there; whiteness has always been a manufactured and malleable thing.
They’d pick a Texas history and/or Civics book and it wouldn’t undermine their thinking in the least.
Right? They’d never get caught dead driving a Honda Civic.
Maybe, but a true Trumpist believes that Lincoln was no true Republican.
I’m not just guessing here. This was explained to me. Seriously.
I see what you did there…
