Nope, men and women aren’t equally sexualized in comics

I was going to make a point before the jocular marsupial derailed us, if only I could recall what it was…

It seems to me that there are two main axes of (heterosexual) male appearance: first, there’s the desire to attract women. This is only natural, and nothing to be embarrassed about; after all, we all come from a long line of men and women who have been attracted to one another, and it’s only natural that we are going to aspire to look more attractive than the next guy, even if it only comes down to brushing our teeth and hair occasionally, and changing our clothes before they get too manky.

The other axis is about intimidating other men: making other men think that it’s not worth wasting their time trying to attract the woman that we’re attracted to, because we will defend our claim, and feelings — at the very least — will be hurt in the process. Yeah, this is very atavistic and embarrassing, but lots of other primates do it, not to mention a lot of other mammals and other critters, and it would be foolish to deny that almost all heterosexual men are aware of this axis.

From this premise it can be guessed that what is generally appealing to women and what is generally appealing to men about men’s appearance is almost certainly going to be different. Without getting too evo-psych about it, beyond a certain level, muscles are the male H. sapiens equivalent of a buck’s antlers: there to intimidate (or, impress, if you prefer) other men primarily, and win fights with them secondarily. How women feel about them is in a sad third place behind those other two purposes. And indeed, talking to women, generally speaking, though they appreciate a bit of muscle tone, men resembling great slabs of beef tend fall into the uncanny valley as far as many women are concerned.

Muscle-bound superheroes are muscle-bound to appeal to young men, not to women, as the men they would like to be. Lithe young women bent into pretzels to display both their buttocks and their breasts in nearly every frame are also drawn to appeal to young men, not young women, as the women they would like to play footsie and other fun things with. These two things are not equivalent. I don’t have a measuring device to tell me if they are equally damaging to the two sexes, but that’s not what’s being argued.

Now, women’s appearance probably has two complementary axes as well: one about attracting men, and the other… I’m not sure about. Maybe intimidatory/impressive in another way? But not about muscles, since, generally speaking, women don’t fight physically nearly as much as men do (for whatever reason, cultural or genetic or both or neither). In an alternate USA where women formed the market for comicbooks and male readers were ignored, we can surmise that the representations of the two sexes would be quite different. Men would not be muscular freaks, but probably only as lithe as, say, Brad Pitt; maybe Spiderman would be allowed to get as skinny as a, well, spider, I guess. What women’s bodies would look like, I can’t say, but almost definitely more varied than they’re allowed to be at the moment.

Meanwhile, men’s bodies would be twisted as women’s are in our universe, only to show off whatever women find attractive; lean, taut buttocks I’m led to believe are popular, chests not so much. Maybe groins; instead of featureless bulges or semi-permanently shadowed voids, maybe we’d all get to see which heroes are circumsized? Also, of course, they’d be drawn from porn by artists who are paid by the page, so we would expect to see some really strange anatomy, on the order of unsupported, helium-filled breasts with either invisible nipples or permanently erect ones drawn in the wrong places.

The fantasy of the above paragraphs is presented as something to mock, by the way, not an alternative proposal of the way things should be. I think what we’d all like is to see well-drawn, balanced views of fit young men and women doing heroic things and looking sexy when the narrative calls for people to look sexy and not in every shot, even when they’ve been brutally beaten and are on the verge of being defeated by the bad guy. (Really, that’s beyond tacky into creepy. Stop it, artist-dudes, please!)

Eh, I’ve gone on too long and done a wall of text. I hope some supporters of the status quo will read it anyway, and think about the fact that supporting the status quo is a political act, as has been pointed out not too far from here recently, every bit as political as calling for change, and think about what side they really want to be on, and what they really want to see in their comics.

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Tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance. Stop.

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I assume you mean the show, as opposed to the books? I think it’s great, despite it’s obvious flaws. Other than the “sexposition” nonsense, the women in the show are complicated, complex people - not just sexual objects. Cersei is conniving, Arya is tough and a tomboy, Shae is a prostitute with a heart of gold (or not), Ygritte is a free woman, Sansa is a young girl quickly being disabused of her previous notions of courtly life in a very brutal way, Brienne is attempting to negotiate her desires to be a knight with the deep sexism against women in her society, Dany is bad ass and kind of a fuck up at the same time… and the lovely, lovely Sand Snakes and Yara (Asha). The women in the show/books are not cardboard cut outs. They are well developed characters as the men, who are negotiating a sexist society that has a very proscribed set of roles for them. they are constantly coming up against those limits, and pushing against them, and sometimes losing out. Martin writes realistic women, I think, given the realities of the universe. He does better with women than Tolkein did, at least. The GOT universe is literally full of interesting women…

Oh, god, and Margery’s grandmother!!! HOLY SHIT, I LOVE THAT WOMAN!!!

Just to be clear - I like superhero comics, despite their flaws. This isn’t about how I (or others feel) about them, just about pointing out flaws that they see with them in the hopes that they can be improved.

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Oh my gosh, you mean… you see past their costumes?

That might be the best made point in this thread.

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Actually, their costumes are often beautiful, yeah? They put some work into those clothes…

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I can also look at She Hulk and not sexualize her. It is okay for some women to have large breasts. I see large and oversized breasts everyday without sexualizing the attached women or the breasts in question. If you can’t look at large breasts without sexualizing the owner that is a personal problem

You may or may not… it’s not the point. The comic is sexualizing them. That’s the point.

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And it seems to me that a lot of what you’re saying is complementary to Anita Sarkeesian’s commentary on videogames which I take as saying not (necessarily) that the characters and worlds should not exist, but that all of the characters within them should be ‘playable’ or fully realized from the inside out with their own human motivations.

Or is the idea to ultimately be able to eliminate those kinds of worlds and characters? Do you say “within the GOT universe these are good characters?” Or should there not be such a fictional universe?

If you can’t look at large breasts without sexualizing the owner that is a personal problem. You can’t read the mind of the artist. Large breasts don’t make me think of sex …they make me think of my son’s mother feeding him.

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And why not? Why shouldn’t we depict women in culture who have agency?

No. Where has anyone said that.

In a fictional universe, the characters are going to have limitations. It’s interesting and realistic when you see the characters reacting within those limitations, yeah?

I’m unsure what point you are attempting to make. Yes the fantasy world that Martin created is indeed sexist, but the characters negotiate the limits of their society realistically, and that’s what makes the story interesting to me. The women in game of thrones are generally fully realized. I have no interest in making the GOT universe go away because I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, OH GOD PLEASE FINISH THOSE LAST 2 BOOKS GEORGE, I KNOW YOU ARE READING THIS RIGHT NOW!!!

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But one may take a statistical sample of breasts in superhero comics and draw some conclusions about the average artist.

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So culture is about you?

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Apparently it’s about you.

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Everytime someone writes an article about this they pick the wrong male heroes for example. Yes the Hulk is no woman’s ideal, but Dick Grayson is and in the latest issue four women talked about his cute butt for three pages of the comic.

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And if you can’t accept someone elses POV without calling it a personal problem, well… enough said there.

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Every character should have agency. To do otherwise is bad writing.

Probably no one here, but on those occasions when I read these sorts of comment threads it seems to emerge as an implied fear on the part of the angry men responding.

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Hmm. @beschizza, who gets to decide what “bad” is – or what “fits” with your content? Ads help make your site free, and censoring is not my first impulse – though if the information that you’ve blocked a particular campaign finds its way back to the agency behind it, maybe that’s a way of sending a message. Without knowing that for sure, I’m more inclined to focus on my own awareness of these things, and being public about that process, than telling other people how to be.

Thanks for all you do.

Oh, I imagine many things like this about ol’ Thurgood.

Projecting your own feelings onto others is nearly the very definition of a personal problem.

What are you arguing exactly? That a woman in spandex, depicted with large breast, as a superhero is just wearing that for breastfeeding purposes?

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