NPR’s top news editor faces multiple sexual harassment claims

That is a thoughtful and restrained reply to a recurring irritation. Many people are undoubtedly trying to minimize the problem of sexual assault, whether because of deep-seated misogyny or desperately clinging to the just-world fallacy. While that was not my intent, I can certainly understand the snap interpretation and snarky response.

I now believe I was premature in my posting. No one actually had made the claim that false accusations don’t happen, and there was no need for my response.

I’m sorry I contributed to derailing the thread, and will do my best in the future to refrain.

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This is all many of us are trying very much to say here. Sure, false accusations happen. We know this, but women not being believed has been a much larger problem, in general. I think we would just like to be taken as seriously as men are in any number of areas of life. I don’t see what that tends to cause such controversy and consternation here, because it sure seems to.

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Fuckin’ A.

We ladies of the BBS don’t keep having different variations of this same conversation because we just enjoy arguing, or because “we like to hear ourselves talk.” We do it because it’s a real problem that won’t go away until we start addressing it and the fact that yes, it IS a big deal.

Indeed; whenever this topic or anything even remotely female related comes up, there’s always at least a handful of dudes who either:

A) Immediately try to play the devil’s advocate; “What about this, though…?”

B) Try to marginalize or minimize the extent of the problem

C) Offer up anecdotal ‘evidence’ that it’s “Hastag, Not All Men”

D) Ask for empirical evidence of said harassment before they will even consider it’s a possibility

or

E) Take it way too personally, as if they themselves are the ones being accused of predatory behavior.

It gets tiresome to always have others automatically just assume that you don’t know what you’re talking about or that you’re being “dishonest” simply because you don’t have the ‘right’ genitalia between your legs.

Do NOT Want

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It is a very interesting text, but it does not answer the question why men (some men, actually) are so vocal to defend the “innocent until proven guilty” script even in hopeless cases.

It is a bit off-topic, but it is an important point. It does not make sense for men to defend obvious sexual predators. So why do they insist on the “innocent until proven guilty” script?

I talked a bit around and I found out that some men, usually the introvert engineer type, have a panic fear of being wrongly accused. As someone pointed to me “I am glad that there is a security camera in the elevator, then I do not fear to be alone with a woman” or “I would not take a female hitchhiker, especially a young attractive one, for fear that she would accuse me of wrongdoing”.

Let me first say that these fears are unreasonable, as these kind of events do not happen. But the fears are there. Why?

I think that the reason is that these lower ranking men feel that they are incredibly vulnerable to reputation damage. As one put it: “if our boss would be accused of sex at work, he would convince people that the story is false. He has the networks, the capacity to convince people and a clique of friends who support him even when he is the bad guy. I don’t have friends who would support me in difficult events. I have never been good at convincing people or building a clique, if I were I would be in marketing and not in engineering. If I am accused, I lose my job, I lose my marriage and even my parents will turn away from me.”

Let me take another deep breath here.

What you described is dudes yet again making something that women fear all about the dudes.

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If part of the problem is that dudes don’t know about things that women fear, is that not about the dudes either?

Forgive the gender essentialism here, as I know that gender isn neither binary nor simple, but it seems like the simple solution is for men to listen to and believe women. So we’re back at the start.

This is anecdotal and I have no hard numbers to back it up. Make of this single experience what you will. As I’ve aged, I have become effectively invisible to a subset of straight cis-dudes. It’s fascinating. I’m simply an object to be moved around in space. No eye contact, no acknowledgement. Even to the point of my actually startling these brosephs when I speak. Now, there’s a blessing here in that I can more often drink a glass of wine or a cup of coffee without being bothered when out in the world – but it does seem to indicate that these types of dudes weren’t seeing me as human all along, but rather as a place they might wish to temporarily put their genitals.

¯\(ツ)

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You see, now I’m concerned that further commentary regarding this will be met with a comment about how it’s all about the dudes.

That might be part of the rationale behind some men’s fears, but as you’ve said, their fear is unreasonable. I think what you’ve described is covered by the last paragraph in the post you responded to:

But why have such an irrational fear of false reporting which is happening at statistically low rates, while real sexual crimes are known to be happening at statisically high rates? Why is some men’s irrational fear stronger than their ability to empathize with victims of sexual violence?

The answer is already known, but I am interested in your opinion on the matter.

Edit: extra pronoun

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I am not really sure about what you are trying to say here. People’s fears are generally about themselves, yes. Women are no different, BTW.

I am just describing as well as I can a situation that puzzles me. If you don’t like the description, just ignore my post.

OK

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I think I already answered that question in the last paragraph of my post. These men feel that they are particularly vulnerable to attacks to their reputation. They are not good at getting help from their friends when attacked. They feel that they can defend themselves in front of a court, but not in front of a mob.

But they might also be falsely accused of any number of things that would be just as destructive.

Again, what allows them to dismiss and discourage the reporting and discussion of real crimes in favor of nursing their own fears?

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But men do know that sexual violence is happening, why are some so quick to deny it?

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Yeah… some men are “afraid?”

Seriously?

Try being a woman sometime, and they’ll learn a whole new meaning of the word.

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Actually, real accusations happens to them at work for non sexual crimes. When employers want to downsize the staff, false accusations are not unheard of, as long as it is something which is difficult to prove. Which is what makes sexual harassment stand out as something where it is their word against somebody else’s word.

It is possible that there are other reasons at play, I don’ know.

Also: I don’t see that they want to discourage the reporting of real crimes. Why do you say that?

I said from the onset that their fear is not reasonable. But it is still there, reasonable or not.

Sigh.

“[W]omen are perceived as too talkative because how much they talk is measured not against how much men talk, but against an ideal of female silence.” (Mary Talbot on research by Dale Spenser)

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It’s quite different to ask for solace in a private space versus ask for condemnation in a public space.

If it was unclear I was speaking of the latter versus the former, I assure you, that was the case.

All of the fear, extra scrutiny and skepticism that women face when coming forward after being harassed or assaulted directly discourages reporting and keeps women silent and afraid.

There are.

People don’t believe victims of sexual assault because it’s simply easier not to. But it also goes deeper than laziness or loyalty. The widespread disbelief of rape has a complicated history but a relatively simple cause: People don’t believe women.

The idea that rape is a crime against a woman, and specifically a crime against a woman’s body, is relatively new. For most of human history, rape has been treated as a property crime against a woman’s husband or father, since they effectively owned her.

For most of American history, women have had to prove that they were chaste, and that they put up extreme resistance, in order to have any hope of winning a court case.

Marital rape has only been illegal in the United States for a few decades, since a husband was considered to have complete authority over his wife. (This dynamic may also complicate how we see the wives of accused rapists who were married decades ago, like Camille Cosby or Hillary Clinton, Rebecca Traister argued at New York magazine.)
It would be naïve to think that the weight of this history has been lifted by a few decades of rapid social progress on feminism. Women are still blamed for sexual assaults committed against them, and they are still blamed for bringing down the promising careers of famous or beloved men.

Women are blamed because they have nearly always been considered, legally and socially, to be worth less than men. They are satellites to male stars, auxiliaries, not full people in their own right. It’s easier to discount their stories because it’s easier to discount them as people.

Male victims face similar problems because sexual assault, and the dismissal of it, has been so strongly gendered for so long — and sex stereotypes of women can also be used as weapons against men.

It’s no longer socially acceptable to say out loud that women are worth less than men. But implicit assumptions can be a lot slower to evolve than outward norms.

Most of us believe deep down that women can’t be trusted

There are some understandable reasons why law enforcement officials, for instance, tend not to believe victims who come forward about rape.

We are only just beginning to understand the scienceof how the brain processes trauma. Memories are stored in a fragmented way, and emotional reactions can seem “off.” Both of these things can raise suspicions among police officers who are accustomed to using rigorous interrogations to ferret out inconsistencies in a story, and rigorous interrogation only makes things worse.

But there’s clearly something deeper going on when a police department calls its sex crimes investigative division the “lying bitch unit.”

And law enforcement officials aren’t the only ones who don’t believe rape victims. Too often, entire communities turn againstsurvivors of sexual assault who come forward.

The idea that women are inherently deceitful, especially when it comes to sexuality, is deeply rooted in our culture. Soraya Chemaly has written extensively about the ways we teach our children that women are liars.

Our pop culture and religious teachings alike are fraughtwith descriptions of women as untrustworthy — from Eve and the apple to Gossip Girl. Teenagers and police officers alike radically overestimate the number of women who lie about rape. This has real consequences in nearly every walk of life, Chemaly writes:

Women’s credibility is questioned in the workplace, in courts, in legislatures, by law enforcement, in doctors’ offices and in our political system. People don’t trust women … not to be bosses, pilots, employees. Last year, a survey of managers in the United States revealed that they overwhelmingly don’t believe women who request flextime. Until relatively recently, in order to hedge against the idea that women lie, many U.S. police departments had “corroboration requirements” for rape reports, unlike any other crime. Pakistan’s controversial Hudood Ordinance still requires a female rape victim to procure four male witnesses to her rape or risk prosecution for adultery.
Damon Young of Very Smart Brothas wrote about how the Cosby situation made him realize that he didn’t truly trust his wife, and that most men don’t trust women. He said he trusts her not to cheat and to be a good partner, and he trusts her opinions on important things:

But you know what I don’t really trust? What I’ve never actually trusted with any women I’ve been with? Her feelings.

If she approaches me pissed about something, my first reaction is “What’s wrong?”

My typical second reaction? Before she even gets the opportunity to tell me what’s wrong? “She’s probably overreacting.”

Female hysteria is another deeply rooted gender stereotype, and it tells us that women can’t even be trusted to know their own feelings. These stereotypes cause doctors to ignore women’s symptoms of pain, and they inspire lawmakers to pass abortion waiting periods because they don’t think women consider their decision carefully enough. Meanwhile, men are perceived as smarter and more authoritative than women.

Our society, which is less separable than we’d like from the cruder societies that came before it, has created a perfect storm of reasons to dismiss rape victims.

A woman can’t be trusted to know her own feelings, which means she either secretly wanted sex while saying she didn’t, or wanted it at the time but changed her mind afterward.

A woman isn’t her own person, not really — so it matters less that believing him means disbelieving her.

A woman can’t be trusted not to lie, so it’s safer to disbelieve her than to risk ruining some innocent fellow’s life.

And men are the ones with money, social status, and something to lose, so they are the real stakeholders in any rape case.

Rape is horrifying and messy, and sometimes it’s easier to disbelieve that it happens at all. But that option isn’t open to victims of rape and sexual assault.

Denying rape means believing that victims are lying. It means denying their humanity and worth. And it’s a denial that has been made far too easy by thousands of years of habit.

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