One guy in Baltimore's thoughts on Baltimore riots

You seem to think

had some options regarding a few looters beyond their control.

It’s already been pointed out to you that it isn’t the case.

My point is in how such incidents, beyond the control of peaceful movements, have to be contended with by such.

Since the media/establishment demand the protestors do control the rioters, and call for everyone to go home or be treated as violent criminals, what choice have they but to continually demand otherwise, stay out, and last but not least condemn such acts, with the caveat that the repression they struggle against has several forms of just deserts for society at large?

Sorry but your notion of a wholly nonviolent movement that includes civil disobedience has never occurred in the US. There simply is no

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You’re wrong, I don’t think that at all. Nor did I infer that nonsense.

I think the rioters and the people in positions of power that created the hostile climate for the riots are responsible for the riots.

My point is in how such incidents, beyond the control of peaceful movements, have to be contended with by such.

I apologize, but I’m not following your point there.

Since the media/establishment demand the protestors do control the rioters

I think only Fox News does that for the most part. They do the same thing with muslims as well. I think the problem the rest of the corporate media has is they choose to focus too much on the rioting. For example, MSNBC and CNN kept camping out cameras next to the burnt-out CVS even while covering other issues.

Sorry but your notion of a wholly nonviolent movement that includes civil disobedience has never occurred in the US.

I think you’re ignoring all the non-violent movements that have had great success while also not focusing on violent events such as the Rodney King riots that sputtered out and failed miserably.

If you want to know my “notions”, try reading my posts more carefully and perhaps venture to that link from a person who has been there (the link I previously gave you to Mark Rudd from the Weather Underground).

Ok, you posted that right after our exchange… so If you left that for me, here’s my response.

Via your article: (emphasis mine)

When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is “correct” or “wise,” any more than a forest fire can be “correct” or “wise.” Wisdom isn’t the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.

I’m not attempting to evade the repercussions of political brutality.

I’m not “the state” nor are the many others who support non-violent protests. Freddie Gray’s family have repeatedly said he wouldn’t have wanted violence perpetrated in his name. Are they attempting to evade the repercussions of political brutality?

As a matter of fact, his family says that those who perpetuate violent riots only serve to disrespect his memory. As a matter of fact, most of the people who live in Baltimore think the rioters disrespected their city and didn’t commit their looting because they gave one shit about Freddie Gray. That’s why many more people who DO care about Freddie Gray came out and cleaned up that fucking mess left by the rioters.

Again, it may selfishly “feel good” to think that these riots are helping the situation within the bigger picture, but what we see in its wake is mostly regression and pain similar to this situation:

Rodney King Is Dead, but Little Else Has Changed Since the Riots That Bore His Name

Peaceful protests and acts of peaceful civil disobedience is what truly shows respect for the community and our civil rights struggle. Not torching a fucking CVS.

I’m fucking done with you and this thread.

Mod note: Agree to disagree.

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@Cowicide, it seems like you’re very angry, so I’ve been hesitant to respond because I don’t want to fan the flames of a non-productive argument. But since you sparked a larger discussion, I do want to contribute some thoughts. Please understand nothing I’m writing is intended in a hostile way.

This post will address a single question:

What is violence?

It’s an important question. Is shoving someone violent? Is breaking a police station window violent? Is stealing violent? How about allowing someone to starve or suffer in poverty?

There are many kinds of terrible harm that we don’t usually recognize as “violent”, but probably should. Coincidentally, they’re the kinds of harm which are inflicted through legitimate structures like the government and economy. Here I’m talking about things like poverty, denial of healthcare, imprisonment, etc.

If we look at violence this way, it shows that really, our entire society rests on a bedrock of violence. Our economy produces violence, our government perpetrates more violence than any other force in the world. Our culture reinforces patterns of violence against marginalized people. And since we are all active participants in this society, we are also participants in violence. Maybe we don’t want to be, but by working hard, paying our taxes, and generally keeping society going smoothly, we are helping society’s engines of violence continue.

I believe that we should be doing whatever is necessary to reduce as much harm to people as we can. I believe that allowing people to suffer harm through inaction - or ineffective action - is just as violent and wrong as causing that harm directly.

So failing to prevent the harm caused by structural violence is morally equivalent to perpetrating that violence ourselves. Because really, it doesn’t matter the technical reason someone dies, the bottom line is they’re dead and we could’ve prevented it.

Recognizing this helps me realize that violence isn’t a black and white issue. None of our hands are clean, nor can they be. And really, it’s not about our individual hands anyway. I don’t care whether you or I specifically can make a claim to being “violent” or “non-violent”, I care whether our society overall is causing harm to people.

By moving beyond a simplistic doctrine of purity, we can look at this as a pragmatic question: What actions will most effectively reduce overall harm in our society? Whatever those actions are, I’m for them. Those who would ask us to restrict our actions to an approved list of “non-violent” tactics are restricting our options. Sometimes, that ends up meaning advocating for less effective action, asking us to be less effective at stopping the systemic violence. And again, failing to effectively stop it is morally equivalent to committing that violence ourselves.

Anyway, all that is to explain that I’m not in any way opposed to “peaceful” actions, I’m opposed to ineffective actions. If collecting petition signatures is effective, I’m for it. If rioting is ineffective, I’m against it. But when it is effective, I absolutely support it, and I think we all have a moral obligation to. Because again, when we oppose effective efforts to reduce structural violence in our society, we might as well be perpetrating that violence ourselves.

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Also, for more selfish reasons, I wanted to address some of these more personal “legitimacy” things:

The reason I’m late in responding to this thread is actually that I was busy organizing and participating in an emergency protest action about police brutality. Many of the participants were “non-violent”, and that was great. Some of them were more militant, and that was great, too. We got along and worked together for a greater cause.

I have been involved in very many protests - both “violent” and “peaceful” - for well over a decade. And yes, I’ve even been pepper sprayed a few times. So I like to think I’ve seen the actual impact of different strategies in practice, and am as qualified as you to speak about them.

It’s a very hard question, and one that we should all ask ourselves before we take any kind of action. I’ve been lucky enough that I haven’t encountered a situation so far where it would be effective to sacrifice my own life or the life of anyone else, and I think that killing and injuring anyone (including ourselves) is usually something that we should try to avoid. But I have made many other sacrifices. I won’t pretend to be a saint, but I’d like to think that if circumstances called for me to make great sacrifice for the sake of others, I would.

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