And as a side note I’ve learned that contrary to the old saying you can pick your family and in fact should. There are people who aren’t biologically or even legally related to me whom I call family because we’d do anything for each other.
Still the older saying holds true: you can pick a fruit but a guitar player should always have a pick.
I don’t think this is true at all. I think you have divide those who are for the criminalization of abortion into various groups. The leaders of the movements, like 5% of humanity, are primarily motivated by social dominance, and would just as happily be advocating any other issue if it meant they had people doing what they told them. The majority of the people, like 30%-50% of humanity, are authoritarian followers who don’t feel like they know what to do with their lives and latch onto authority figures to tell them what to do.
They are, as you say, for the most part nice people, but they are (like 99% of humanity) so capable of compartmentalized thinking that their empathy for others doesn’t come into the picture when they stand on street corners with pictures that remind me of a miscarriage, and change nothing for anyone. They could be swayed from their opinions by personally knowing people who have been affected by the issue and empathizing with them, but they don’t spend their time around people who would admit they have had an abortion, so that doesn’t happen.
I think the figure for the portion of humanity that honestly believes they are trying to do the right thing is more like 90% or 95%, never 99.9%, and in the system we have set up right now, those 5% or 10% of people - who, if you could really get them to speak honestly, would say, “What the fuck does ‘the right thing’ even mean and why should I care?” - have a very outsized influence on the rest of us (or at least the small number of them who are successful do).
When I see an anti abortion demonstration on the streets of Toronto (totally different context than the US, but this is my experience) I see one or two middle aged people surrounded by young people - maybe 16 to early 20s. They hold signs with pictures of “aborted fetuses” that basically galvanize passers-by against them so that they can feel like heroes trying to fight a good fight. The dynamic is clear. Those youth could be suicide bombers, or be involved in sports, or be building houses with habitat for humanity. Dangerous, exploitative assholes are using them - not to try to save the lives of unborn “people”, but to feel like they are important.
You can pick your nose and you can pick your friends, but you really shouldn’t pick your friend’s nose.
That’s the one that I always heard, maybe it was a California thing. Here’s another oldie but goodie:
Why fart and waste it when you can burp and taste it?
Isn’t much of the Christian rights rhetoric couched in military terms?
Onward Christian Soldiers?
You’ve seen Jesus Camp, right? It’s certainly not all Christians by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s a subset that has tried hard to take over the GOP and has not too few people willing to promote their views.
I still haven’t seen it… I’m afraid…
It’s worth watching. Very much about indoctrinating children into the struggle against the secular world. There is a Leonard Cohen line… “You who build these alters now/to sacrafice these children/you must not do it anymore/ for a scheme is not a vision/ and you never have been tempted by a demo or a god”
Here is Suzanne Vega’s version:
Never heard of it. Will have to see if I can gets old of it. Sounds a bit like a Louis Theroux doc.
You who build these ALTARS now…building alters is sci-fi territory!
It is pretty scary when you see how effectively these kids are brainwashed into hate and intolerance.
That’s because 99% of the time those are in fact actually miscarriages.
And self-described ‘pro-lifers’ would consider such cases in which the woman dies to be evidence of divine, moral justice.
Not saying they’re right, it’s just that they would gleefully agree with your point.
IKR!?
but if I stab one suddenly I’m a bad guy and not in fact doling out divine moral justice.
Just goes ta show ya…something?
edit: On that note, I ask, if everything that occurs is a part of the ol’ plan, why is suicide a mortal sin in some religions? Is that like God slapping back atcha with a snappy backhand, laughin you down to hell for something you did before you committed suicide?
Are these protesters representative of people who are against abortion? I know a lot of people who are against it, but nobody who has been in a protest. I know one guy who used to protest against animal testing, but he was quite disturbed in a number of ways and not representative of people who care for animal welfare.
Quite a few people seem to be some way toward @mikethebard’s position: it’s not a neutral decision, but there are times when it’s necessary. They would oppose the idea of abortion based on choice alone, and would consider themselves to be pro life. I guess there are quite a few people out there who fit the profile of pro birth only (and the moral bankruptcy of the Republican party on this and other issues is shocking), but I’m really not sure whether it’s representative of pro life people in general (or at least, it’s a stereotype that isn’t true in many cases).
I do know a number of people who not only know what it is to have (often multiple) children with mental and physical disabilities. The ones I’ve seen adopting and caring for them have overwhelmingly been pro life. This has meant that rather than seeing things like downs syndrome and cystic fibrosis as making these children less valuable, they were able to see the value in that life (and were able to encourage the child to see value in their own life).
When my wife and I started fostering our son, we were told that he probably wouldn’t survive three months. He had already been left under a park bench at a week of age and the orphanage was giving up on him at 13 months ad he was still only a little over the weight of a newborn. He’s now six and doing well in school. Some friends did something similar and cared for another child until she died a coupe of months later. Two of my friends basically live on rubbish dumps in different countries because that’s where the rejected children are, and they want to support them. Other friends work in aids orphanages or hospices, because they value life. More than one person works to try to find alternative employment for prostitutes in different countries (I’m not against empowered sex work under good conditions, but that isn’t the experience of the women that they work with). I don’t know how many pro life nurses and doctors I know and respect.
The one person my wife knows who does go to abortion clinics does this once a month, and does not carry placards or shout at people. She spends the rest of her time helping women to find resources to be able to look after a child or to be able to give the child up for adoption.
I realise that my experience is probably not typical of the people you meet. However, the people I know are not ignorant of many of the complexities involved, but approach them from quite a different perspective. I personally would see myself as pro life and pro choice (it’s an ethically significant decision, but it’s not my decision), and don’t necessarily see people on either side as misguided.
More like a subset who are trying to take over the US government, and after that the world. They want to promote a national and global christian theocracy to the same extent that DAESH wants to put in place a global muslim caliphate. The christians are just working in a system that allows them to be successful without blowing themselves up.
It’s on Netflix. There’s also a 48hour rental for it on youtube for $2.99 USD.
I’m happy that you and your wife and your friends are so supportive, thats lovely.
But being pro life takes a choice away from someone else, and I can never support that. Either women have bodily autonomy or they do not, there is no middle ground.
I am Canadian, and we have unrestricted abortion here (it does vary province to province and unfortunately some women need to travel, but it can be done) and we don’t have a term limit, so 3rd term abortion is legal, and ironically enough, not performed in Canada, we send women stateside for that. That all said, I’m obviously biased, in that this has never been a debate in my life time. It has always been available the entire time I’ve been alive. So for me, this is not a debate. Talking about limiting access to abortion is a discussion about taking away my bodily autonomy.
Yeah, I found it earlier - asked the good lady wife and she watched it years ago. Apparently reminded her of her childhood, and not in a good way.
I think my MiL is a member of some kind of Catholic cult.
I’m not talking about taking autonomy away. Essentially, I can have personal views about pregnancy without feeling that everyone has to follow them. It doesn’t mean that I think it doesn’t matter, just that it should be left to the woman to make a free decision, and I support their right to do it. On the other hand, my pro life position means much more than not liking abortion and there are many times when it is relevant to express.
It isn’t that pro choice people don’t do the things I mentioned, but the people I described often do it for fundamentally pro life reasons - life is valuable at a level much deeper than development or value to others.
