Sorry, I was writing this really late last night as I couldn’t sleep. It’s possible that I would have done better with a clearer head. I was trying to split the issue into the two binary elements of +/- abortion and +/-choice. They may not be the best terms, but to illustrate:
The Chinese government is a +abortion -choice entity. Women do not have full control over their bodies, and the instruments of control over women include abortion. Poverty is +abortion -choice, but it’s also -safe abortion.
The Republican Party is -abortion -choice, and restriction from reproductive services is an instrument of control over women.
I see myself -abortion +choice. I don’t see a foetus as having the same value as a woman, but it has enough value that its life should be taken seriously. I think it’s a complex decision that people will look at differently, and the person to make the decision is the woman. I wouldn’t try to push my view in the legal system, but it would affect decisions made together with my wife. It’s her call if that comes up, but the vasectomy related to my own body (and I actually had to get my wife’s written permission in order to have the operation done).
Most people here are +abortion +choice. This doesn’t mean that anyone sees more abortions as a goal, but you probably wouldn’t see it as a necessary evil if a woman wanted to have an abortion.
That’s true, and I was trying to give an idea of the way of thinking rather than making a truth claim. My point was that there are factors relating to a woman’s experience of pregnancy that could make her less pro-choice, as well as the other way.
It’s true that the label is often used in that way. What I’m trying to get at is that for many people, it means a lot more than “banning abortion” and is seen in a positive light. I don’t mind using “consistent life ethic” if you prefer, as that seems quite similar to my own views.
I don’t know her, but I’m pretty sure she is religious. While apparently she makes a point of not shouting, waving banners etc., I’m sure she still comes off as creepy.
This is false.
I am ONLY pro choice.
“pro-abortion” is a term ONLY uses by anti-choicers. No one (obviously only speaking for myself and people I know) who is pro-choice would use that term, its grotesque. Using a coded and emotionally charged term like “pro-abortion” is a tactic of anti-choicers to undermine and belittle pro-choice.
I don’t mean that you like it, I mean that you don’t think that it’s ethically wrong. “Anti-choice” is also only used by pro-choice people. No one who is pro-life would use that term. Using a coded and emotionally charged term like “anti-choice” is a tactic of pro-choicers to undermine and belittle pro-life.
I’m not trying to slip terms past you or engage in bad faith debate. This is one of the issues that divides society about 50/50 and includes plenty of good people on both sides. While that may be the result, not many people are motivated by a desire to remove choice as a goal in itself. This is one of those cases in which the definition of “person” really matters, and can have a profound effect on whether you consider abortion primarily healthcare for a woman or death for a child (or something in between). The ethics of providing this medical care rest on the status of that foetus. Right now both sides look a bit like monsters to the other (baby killers vs. women enslavers!), and I think dialogue is a good way to recognise the humanity in others beyond their opposition to your cause. For my part, I spend quite a bit of time asking evangelicals to look after their own morality and not legislate it for others.
I’m going to leave it there though, thank you all for the discussion.
This is exactly the definition. It’s about laws not about opinions.
Look, I don’t like abortion. It’s awful! I don’t want women to have to get them. But women’s decisions are their own to make. Period. It’s their health and their person and their own self-determination.
Why would she even be getting an abortion? Because her back’s up against the wall, that’s why. I’m sure she hates the idea of an abortion too. Nobody wakes up and gets dressed up in nice clothes, beams a smile and exclaims, “Honey, I think I’m going to go get an abortion today!” It doesn’t work that way. Nobody likes abortion. It’s not about like. So our opinions about it are worthless, no matter how you feel about it.
The way media talks and questions people about abortion, “How do you feel about it?” “What’s your opinion on abortion?” That is completely bogus.
THIS! A thousand times this!!
I do not care about how people “feel” about the contents of my uterus! Get your fucking feelings and religions and laws out of my fucking uterus! And just because someone feeeeeels strongly about the contents of my uterus doesn’t make that opinion more valid! Keep your fucking opinions to yourself!
Even if we completely strip away everything people think about fetuses and life and everything, let’s remember that an abortion is very often going to mean having someone dilate your cervix so they can put a metal instrument inside and scoop out whatever is in there (or whatever is left in there after some other process). Go poll 100 women and see how many love cervical dilation / how many love metal tools going up their vaginas. This is not a thing people do for fun.
I’m guessing that you’re not in Travis County, but I can’t remember: are you (or were you) in Arlington? I spent 4th through 12th grades there. Dick Armey was our rep for part of that time.
Having seen the other reply, maybe it was @IronEdithKidd I was thinking of.
For some reason, the Houston area always seemed as though it might as well have been in another state, and I didn’t visit the area until I’d been out of college for a couple of years. I couldn’t imagine it would be any more red than Dallas/Fort Worth (if not as blue as Austin). But, yeah, DeLay was from Sugar Land, right?
It isn’t always the case, but in the Houston area as in some other parts of the South, a Democrat is what you call a Republican that opposes the current Republican and sees no other path to power.
Not always, but often down there blue gets purple and then it just disappears in the red.
