If, when you hold individual police officers individually responsible for their individual actions, you include those who refuse to speak out against the crimes of their fellow officers, you’re practically back to holding the police responsible as a collective again.
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That would be good, except for the whole thin blue line bullshit you get from police unions.
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No one cares when citizens are beaten, raped or kill. This is NYC and people have been raped by police officers with foreign objects. The police here are only going to use the death of these officers to justify future assaults and murders against the people they are suppose to serve. Where is the outrage against those that would use these peoples deaths who where polices officers for there own political gain and wanton actions.
Their deaths do no justify the murders and assault by police.
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I’m sorry if I was ambiguous on that point; I am totally against the kind of senseless violence that resulted in the deaths of those two officers. I absolutely condone and encourage radical action. I fear we are lost without very fundamental changes to our nation, but if those radical actions incorporate the very things that they are ostensibly being used to fight against, then they are no different and serve merely as a perpetuation, not a solution.
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The real reason the mayor asked for no protests is the police are very angry and they are likely to take their anger out on anyone they see.
This only reenforces the need for greater scrutiny and a reduction in the power and force of the police.
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Full disclosure, I’m a cop. I don’t think protesters or the mayor are to blame for the deaths of these officers (although I understand why cops don’t want to hear chants of “what do we want? Dead cops.”) On the other hand, he isn’t asking for protests to end (I am all for an honest conversation about police misconduct) but just to let them stop for a few days until these officers are buried. I remember similar requests from the families of people killed by police. This is a complex situation. I always tell people who ask that I will have frustratingly subtle and nuanced opinions about the situation. Right now is no exception. Quite frankly, its fucked up all around.
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One officer killing an unarmed civilian is a matter of individual officers.
Dozens of unrelated officers across the nation are killing unarmed civilians, and we have a systemic issue plaguing the collective.
What about attacking the root of the problem and not excusing the system due to a few “bad apples”?
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Dozens of unrelated officers across the nation are killing unarmed civilians, and we have a systemic issue plaguing the collective.
But there are hundreds of thousands of officers drawing that conclusion that because these dozens of unrelated officers are never prosecuted, and never forced to take responsibility for their individual actions, that there is in fact a policy of tolerating thuggishness among the police.
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So you’re saying the police force is largely made up of Good Germans?
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Citing the dictionary to resolve political or ethical disputes is lazy. Citing urbandictionary is just… wrong.
There is clearly a policy of tolerating thuggish behaviour - people committing non-violent offences - selling loosies, jaywalking, playing with a toy gun, carrying a toy gun in a toy store - are winding up dead, and the courts and the system is letting it slide. We need to make it so that if you kill someone during arrest, you go to jail for a year and leave active duty. Ok, police put themselves in harms way, I could believe there are cases you need to use deadly force. But at the moment they can take life with impunity. There’s no penalty. Do I want to spend a year in jail - no. So then I would save back the deadly force for when my life is really in danger and losing one year to jail is a better choice than losing all of it in the confrontation.
I can see why the mayor is asking … “Don’t chant ‘What do we want? Dead Cops! when do we want it? Now!’ when matching through the street” because that will escalate the risk of violence and won’t hold the police accountable to justice.
I’m surprised it took so long for the first cops to be killed in broad daylight on account of their uniform. Continuous killings during arrest, justice being frustrated - will eventually result in civil war.
Appoint an independent prosecutor in police brutality cases, whose only role is prosecuting police abuses.
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I’m reminded of
discussion of the exclusionary rule.
specifically these pages
Of course, there, the author is trying to explain what sort of biases are already in the system, while here, we are trying to introduce a novel bias into the system in order to correct matters.
I would soften this a little. Good initial approach. But allow an exception when at least two cameras (whether car-mounted, officer-carried, or on the street) show that the opponent actually attempted to use deadly force first. Perhaps even one, if it shows the scene well and forensics is not contradictory and the officer is not shown escalating the situation.
Sometimes the adversary is plain crazy and deadly force is needed. But it is very very rare.
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1992: Thousands of NY cops break the law to PROTEST the mayor for suggesting a civilian oversight committee.
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/09/17/nyregion/officers-rally-and-dinkins-is-their-target.html
Mayor’s probably afraid of them.
So don’t listen to him.
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I was merely clarifying what I meant by “Good German.” urbandictionary is simply the first relevant result I got from google.
Will you address my question if I remove the offending link?
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Aren’t there some departments where there’s polices that if an officer kills someone during an arrest, they’re given a few months leave and are required to do counseling and a mental health evaluation. I think I’ve heard of that kind of practice before. I’m not sure if it would work to cut down on things like racially-driven violence, but I’d expect that it would help with cops who mistakenly shoot people out of what’s referred to as the siege-mentality. Namely those cops who feel like they’re in a war-zone, should be going to counseling and made to do more non-law-enforcement based community outreach, for instance helping to staff food drives and soup kitchens during paid leave.
In fact, a lot of places the local PD doesn’t seem to have any kind of positive interaction with the communities they’re working in, and I’d think it would be a really good idea for PDs to work hard to show they’re public servants, and that they’re helpful for more than just chasing down “bad guys” and confiscating loosies. It’s important that police are a part of the community, not an occupying force, because that always breeds resentment. A lot of people on the BBS have mentioned that they’re more afraid of officers than they are of anyone else. And that’s a horrific state of affairs for both the police and the rest of the citizenry. And probably the first steps towards making the police less of a percieved threat in everyday life is for the department to stop tolerating the bullies who like to take out the rod just to stroke their ego.
Personally, the reason why I dislike interacting with officers is because I have no way of knowing if the guy who pulled me over is just going to write me a ticket (if I did something wrong) and send me on my way, or if he’s going to pull me out of my car and beat me. I know either way, he’s very unlikely to account for it, and I know if a cop feels like applying hay-makers to my face, I can’t defend myself because then I’d just go to jail, or end up shot.
This doesn’t have so much to do with protesting, but I feel it’s also important to try and have a dialog and talk about ideas that might help improve the public perception of police. As it stands, the police look like guys with guns who are given a monopoly on violence, and who can harm anyone with impunity, and if you just happen to get picked on by a cop, it sucks to be you, because nobody else will stand up for you, and DAs will never prosecute a man with a badge, unless he goes on a major killing spree.
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An NYPD chief sent out a memo telling his officers not to make any inflammatory remarks on social media; the police union advised their members not to make any unnecessary arrests. Those sound like backhanded confessions to me.
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Sure let’s hold individual cops accountable but this doesn’t happen due to many reasons, one being the cozy relationship of prosecutors and police. It’s why if you’re a cop you have a 90% chance of even avoiding an indictment even when you murder and it’s caught on camera. It’s why Wilson wasn’t cross examined and was allowed to testify at his own grand jury. If you’re a citizen you have a 99% chance of getting indicted by a grand jury and won’t get such lavish exceptions granted to you… I can guarantee that. The issue is systemic, hence the system needs to be changed and why people are out protesting.
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How about John, that you and your reasonable bretheren actually demand that the police unions shut the hell up and get out of the way when it comes to accusations of police wrongdoings?
How about you demand that officers who are proven to be unfit for duty, who continuously accost members of the community they are sworn to protect, who murder, who steal, who are bent, demand that these officers be expelled from the force at a minimum and face criminal charges where appropriate.
Why aren’t you and your good cop comrades demanding these things happen in order to make your jobs safer?
Or has nothing changed since the days of Frank Serpico?
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Strawman much?
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