Also, that $5B was the accumulated amount spent over the last ~20 years ($200Mln/year sounds alot less spectacular).
And I believe that figure includes the costs of sequestering and transporting fissile nuclear material out of Ukraine.
This is an amazing demonstration of projection.
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I said they station snipers, and if the police in the streets were in any danger, the snipers would shoot. Itās common knowledge. I donāt know why youāre distorting this and then presenting that distortion as some absurdity.
Are you reading what you write? Werenāt you arguing that these crackdowns wouldnāt happen in American client states [such as Bahrain] and couldnāt happen in America. I think itās relevant that some of the same people, notably John Timoney, are training police for protest suppression in the United States and in these client states, and that they have organized crackdowns in America and been involved during rather more violent crackdowns in these client states.
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This is an amazing demonstration in projection
So now youāre hallucinating that I drummed up false arguments against you in the first place? Youāre delusional. All anyone has to do is scroll up to your first inane reply to me (unprovoked). Have some dignity.
Let me know once you finally slow down, go back and read what I said in context so you actually have a clue what my comments mean in the first place instead of jumping to conclusions in ignorance.
We covered this ground a long time ago here from near the beginning:
Like I said, if you want respect admit your mistake so we can at least get on some level of respect for each other. Until then, youāre a joke to me.
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This, I agree with you: all anyone has to do is scroll up. Youāre the one who calls people ālittle doggieā and āhoney.ā Iām not scared of people reading what Iāve written.
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I apologize for referring to you as a little doggie. Maybe try to be a little more polite from the start next time and try not jumping on my shit out of context, etc. and youāll get more respect. Respect is something you earn. You have not earned my respect.
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I think this map is far more interesting:
It remains within the theme of significant regional differences within ukraine, but it also suggests that ethnicity and language are separate issues.
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No kidding the USA was involved. If you cared to quote the entire sentence I wrote, I said that the USA is one of their arms suppliers. Good catch, though; I almost got away with that one.
Iām sure youāll be calling out Cowicide on his personal insults any moment now, too.
I donāt know that they put snipers on buildings for your everyday protests. They put snipers on buildings when they are concerned about things like terrorists and assassinations of political figures, not for run-of-the-mill protests. I highly doubt there were snipers overlooking Occupy Wall Street protests. And I do not in any way shape or form expect snipers to take out protestors who āthreatenā police. I do expect things like pepper spray, flash bangs, bean bag rounds, rubber bullets, directed noise, water canons and the like. All of these have been used, but Iām not aware of the US ever having used a sniper on protestors. So I donāt agree with your common knowledge.
I never said that ātheseā (Yanukovich style) crackdowns wouldnāt occur in places like Bahrain (which are not, to my mind, client states). And why would I say that, when itās clear Bahrain has used lethal force and live ammunition on protestors? What I said is that the US criticised them for doing so, just as theyāve criticised Yanukovich for doing so. I even included a link where they criticised Bahrain, which is what precipitated the whole āmaybe they criticized Bahrain but did you know a private American citizen taught them crowd control techniquesā argument.
What I have said is that the US doesnāt engage in these sorts of violent crackdowns on protestors. Tear gas as used in some places in the US is not the same as live ammunition. Iām sorry, but it just isnāt.
The high ground is imaginary. How long has it been since the US drone bombed Pakistan? Invaded Iraq. Bombed Libya? How many civilians killed? And with all our experience of teaching democracy, how well off are any of those countries? Spend some time looking into police killing civilians. Russia is no peach, but the US can no longer claim any moral high ground. I didnāt say the US spent $5 B to in order to "overthrow this particular government. I said āI donāt recall the State Dept. spending $5 Billion in any of the countries involved in the links below for a change in government as it has in the Ukraineā. Please donāt project what you think I said onto what I really said.
Isnāt that for Ukraine to decide?
Maybe some. I donāt know. Neither do you. Iāve also watched video of a middle aged woman with a few hundred Ukrainians around her giving an interview and getting the crowd to chant Russia and clap. Iāve also talked directly with a couple of Ukrainians and they call the new government illegal. They donāt really want to be annexed to Russia but they do find it preferable to having the government they elected overthrown and replaced with no say.
It may be your opinion that the invasion was wrong but those in Crimea that want no part of the new unelected government have declared themselves autonomous and want the protection. Maybe they will get the chance to vote on what they want but the current unelected government was not/is not going to give them a choice of their own sovereignty was they? Peoples choice.
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I suppose you can link to a line item budget?
And actually, you do have a habit of completely failing to address the substance of arguments you disagree with
Itās ironic you should say that considering youāre completely failing to address the substance of the argument youāre disagreeing with. How about you stop projecting, stop focusing on me and realize that false arguments made against me by your pal (while acting rude in the first place) might just be the root of the problem here.
You two can continue to degrade yourselves by attacking me and my character throughout this thread if youād like, but it doesnāt change the fact that I supported myself with sources. You two hate being wrong, I get it. Move on.
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Was it you who was saying something about changing goal posts? The moral high ground, if you want to call it that, was originally in reference to the Yanukovich treatment of protestors. Iām not sure how drone strikes and the like get dragged into it, but it remains true that the US does not put down protestors with this sort of violence. [quote=ātime, post:203, topic:24467ā]
I didnāt say the US spent $5 B to in order to "overthrow this particular government. I said āI donāt recall the State Dept. spending $5 Billion in any of the countries involved in the links below for a change in government as it has in the Ukraineā.
[/quote]
So whatās the distinction? I understood you to mean that the US spent $5 billion to affect a change in Ukraineās government. I specifically asked this in a reply, and you responded with a link saying that the US spent $5 billion over a 23 year period to promote democracy in Ukraine, as though this showed the US paying this money to change the current Ukrainian government.
Yes. Which is why Iāve never said otherwise (and Iām repeating this from my last response to you). This also means it isnāt for Russia to decide.
Well, what I do know is that itās not all Ukrainians who are waving these flags, which is contrary to what you originally wrote. And you donāt know that these are Ukrainians surrounding the grandmother, either, since [Russian protest tourists][1] are a real thing.
[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/world/europe/russias-hand-can-be-seen-in-the-protests.html?rref=homepage&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Home%20Page&pgtype=Blogs[quote=ātime, post:203, topic:24467ā]
It may be your opinion that the invasion was wrong but those in Crimea that want no part of the new unelected government have declared themselves autonomous and want the protection. Maybe they will get the chance to vote on what they want but the current unelected government was not/is not going to give them a choice of their own sovereignty was they? Peoples choice.
[/quote]
Yeah. I donāt know how you make this neat turn from āItās Ukraine to decideā to āWell, Russia invading a sovereign country is OK because maybe the Ukrainian people will get to decide at some point.ā And I love how the new government created by Ukrainian MPs is unelected, but this Crimean government is apparently legitimate (despite their PM being installed on February 27th in a way not allowed by law) and the people apparently want protection (and we know what the people want how?). And whereas you were just saying that neither your nor I can know certain things that are going on in Ukraine, now all of a sudden you are dead certain that the new Ukrainian regime would not let them contemplate sovereignty. Superb logic.
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No, the moral high ground came later. Your claim was that āThe one thing the US seems to be clearly against is violent suppression of domestic protestorsā. I simply implied that the US is only against the violent suppression of domestic protesters when it suits their agenda and the US does not make issue with it when it does not suit their agenda or is counter productive to their agenda. Moral High ground became a topic because on every issue you are inclined to downplay US misdeeds and and put them on some sort of sliding scale.
Re-read the posts. I did indeed mean that the US spent $5 billion to affect change in Ukraineās government. Nuland stating that the State Dept. was working to bring Ukraineās government into compliance with EU regulations bears that out. Ukraine canāt change itās government without,changing itās government. You said āregime changeā. I said āchange Ukraineās governmentā. Given the will of the people and government, regime change was not/is not required to change government. The $5 billion was for government change. That said, it was the intercepted phone call that showed the State Deptās planning for regime change.
Who said Russia was deciding?
Really. I could say the same about the Kiev protesters and some do. We could go tit for tat for days on theories about ārealā protesters. What I do know is that a very significant amount of Ukrainians voted for the elected pro-Russian President. Itās impossible for me to believe that they are not protesting as Pro-Russian now.
In the view of Crimea, the Ukraine does not have a legitimate government to abide by. While their declaration of autonomy would not have been legal(or needed) under the prior elected governmentās laws, those laws ceased to exist after the coup. That, Iām afraid, will be exactly Russiaās point of view as the US and NATO tries to claim that Russia is in violation of the Budapest agreement. The agreement was made with a different government/country and was voided when that government ceased to exist(was overthrown). I never claimed that the Crimean government was legitimate. It has not been recognized as legitimate internationally just as Ukraineās government is not recognized by all. The whole thing is a mess. Russia, as far as I know at this moment, has not proposed any government for Ukraine as a whole nor for Crimea seperately. They are an occupying force at the moment. My suspicion is that Russia will wait to see how things play out for Ukraine as a whole and if that does not happen, they will look to Crimea and maybe more of east Ukraine to decide on forming their own sovereign State or annex into Russia. I believe Russia will allow them to decide and provide security. Itās my guess. Unfortunately I believe western Ukraine may gum up the works trying to fight over it.
And how do I know that the New Ukrainian regime would not let them contemplate sovereignty? Current events and the words that come out of their mouths. āNobody will give Crimea away,ā - Ukraineās Interim Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk.
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Thanks! I only ever read the top one and get indigestion, or the feeling that someoneās bitten my fingers offā¦
Thatās it.
The world will yet come to realise that Herge wasnāt just entertaining - he ripely and succinctly briefed us in a few short books about the evils of dictatorial nations.
OK. For those of you who donāt know about Allister Heath at Londonās City AM newsdesk, now you do.
Heās one of the most rounded, pragmatic commentators on economic affairs, and this is what he says on potential reactions to the Ukraine problem:
A trade war with Russia would be Lehman Bros 2
Anyone disagree?
This is the thing, and the elegance, if you can call it that, of Pfutinās move. Itās Kasparovian. The west is just recovering from 6+ years of hardship, and itās been hard, and I bet for many readers, you know that hardship. I do. All too well.
For all the principles, rhetoric and politics, the practical reality is that anything but sitting back and gently playing cards with P is going to lead to immense problems, which would cost political leaders their posts, and populations their living.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the whole thing, on principle and belief, at every level - but this time, weāre in a trap, with a bear.
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Mod note: Iāve done some clean up. Stay on topic and stop the name calling.
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Well said. And thanks for the link on Russian Russians agitating in Ukraine.
So, what X means to youā¦ it also must mean that to everyone, but when someone else says Z, well clearly they meant Y and not Z, because thats what it means to you. The utter subjectivity of your position confirms that this is about your ego and not even about Ukraine anymore.
Try giving the respect you want to receive. Give it a try. Disagree agreeably. Don;t be that guy (or gal!!) who talks down to other but plays the victim when you get a taste of your medicine. Man (or Woman) Up!
I think many of your on-topic positions are things I disagree with. I would get into it, but I am not sure your faith in the process of discussion is good.
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If only Crimea were a sovereign state. But they arenāt.
Just because I stole your milk money during the fire drill does not mean it was mine to take, or that I get to keep it. There are bigger kids on the playground, you should all remember that.
Sorry you lost at hockey.
