Putin calls for invasion of Ukraine; UN security council meets

[bwv812]

@smartr

“However, my point that you keep ignoring, is that Ukraine is being torn in two by its own people.”

Citation needed.

How can you not have seen the little charts showing that Tymoshenko/Yanukovich voting almost exactly aligned with Russian-speaking/Ukrainian-speaking?

[bwv812]

@time

Interpret “promote democracy” any way you like, I suppose. Ukraine has been a Republic with elections ever since independence hasn’t it?

The only way I can interpret spending $5 B to “promote democracy” in a democratic State is ‘Promote democracy with the people we want in charge’. Especially when I haven’t seen the same type of effort to “promote democracy” in,say,Saudi Arabia that doesn’t have any democracy.

Right. All democracies are born fully formed, leaping like Athena from the head of Zeus. It’s certainly not possible that new democracies without any history of being a democracy have growing pains. I mean, it’s not like there are likely to be problems with corruption or kleptocracies. And why is Tymoshenko in jail again? Because either she embezzled or she was set up, both of which are surely the hallmarks of well-run democracies, right? But you’re saying all democracies are equal, presumably from the DPRK all the way on up. Sound logic.

But that notwithstanding, I suppose that when the US spends money to promote democracy in Russia they must have wanted Putin, right?

[smartr]

2012 election results:

So… There it is… America “tearing itself apart”. Perhaps the Russians should just come on in.
Do you have opinion polls where the Ukrainians are being torn apart by the ouster of their latest president? Last I heard the Republicans didn’t suddenly up and want to split the country in half after Nixon was impeached… Nor has Ukraine made any significant political movement whatsoever to split its country in half. The only serious “political” movement for that has been Russia marching in with their troops… In 1991, Ukraine experienced a national referendum wherein 90 percent of Ukrainians voted for the nation’s independence. How about some actual poll data showing Ukraine being “torn in two by its own people”, where people actually say they want to break their country apart.

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/ilya-timtchenko-the-deadly-illusion-of-a-divided-ukraine-338107.html

[time]

@bwv812

Right. All democracies are born fully formed, leaping like Athena from the head of Zeus. It’s certainly not possible that new democracies without any history of being a democracy have growing pains. I mean, it’s not like there are likely to be problems with corruption or kleptocracies. And why is Tymoshenko in jail again? Because either she embezzled or she was set up, both of which are surely the hallmarks of well-run democracies, right? But you’re saying all democracies are equal, presumably from the DPRK all the way on up. Sound logic.

But that notwithstanding, I suppose that when the US spends money to promote democracy in Russia they must have wanted Putin, right?

Heh.

Are you suggesting that our own democracy has solved the problems of corruption and no longer suffers from growing pains? Now that we’ve discovered our own brand of Utopia we are now ready show others our glorious ways?

It’s not like the US isn’t hopelessly split between two bitter political Parties. One of those parties still claims the US Presidential election was rigged. And good hell, look to the EU. No corruption there, eh? When was the last time Spain elected a leader?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26014387

I could care less if Ukrainians, all or a majority, want to be aligned with the EU or Russia. I think it’s kinda stupid to trade one corruption for another but that’s just me. What I will do, and you refuse to do, is look at both sides and listen to all the people.

[bwv812]

@smartr

So… There it is… America “tearing itself apart”. Perhaps the Russians should just come on in.Do you have opinion polls where the Ukrainians are being torn apart by the ouster of their latest president?

Tearing itself apart on the basis of what? What does the red-state/blue-state divide correlate with? And does the magnitude of the victory track with the that variable like Russian language does with Ukrainian politics?

If you wanted to use a better analogy, you could present a similar map for Canada and break things down according to the French language. Do that and you would be able to see that the desire for independence correlates strongly with language.

@smartr

How about some actual poll data showing Ukraine being “torn in two by its own people”, where people actually say they want to break their country apart.

I believe the Crimean PM has put independence on the May ballot.

@time

Are you suggesting that our own democracy has solved the problems of corruption and no longer suffers from growing pains? Now that we’ve discovered our own brand of Utopia we are now ready show others our glorious ways?

You like absolutes and false equivalences, don’t you? It’s a spectrum. American democracy is significantly better than nascent democracies. As is Spanish democracy.

@time

What I will do, and you refuse to do, is look at both sides and listen to all the people.

That’s out of left field. Your only contributions to this thread, thus far, have been to thank someone for a wing-nut link and then multiple posts declaring that the USA is every bit as bad as Russia/Yanukovich when it comes to suppressing protestors and that the US is buying elections. I’m not sure how this amounts to you listening to everyone, or how my disagreeing with you means I refuse to look at both sides.

[anon68952647]

@mcv

It is not an invasion when the armed forces are there to help the target country

I’m glad you recognize that ‘help’ belongs in italics.

[time]

Your whole argument is based on some imaginary moral high ground. The US is against protester suppression. The US is spreading democracy. We beat our protesters less. US democracy is better than their democracy. Our corrupt politicians are better than their corrupt politicians.

I get it. Just say that you(US) know what is best for the Ukrainian people and that they should all be like you(US).

The Russian flags flying in Ukraine lead me to believe a good portion of the people in Ukraine don’t agree with you.

[MarjaE]

[quote=“bwv812, post:162, topic:24467”]
And which domestic protests have been suppressed in a comparable way?[/quote]

None recently. But the police station snipers during any major protest, if the police in the streets were in any danger, the snipers on the buildings would shoot. If American protests which didn’t suit the government escalated the way the Ukrainian protests had, the American police would probably shoot.

Did Canada use live ammunition? Or even rubber bullets? Did the US government speak out against violence in Bahrain? How differently are they acting with respect to Ukraine than they did with Bahrain? Is it simply that they didn’t condemn Bahrain as strongly as they did Russia & Yanukovich?

The United States provided training and tear gas. John Timoney, who organized crackdowns on protests in Philadelphia and Miami, helped train Bahraini police during the crackdowns there.

[anon68952647]

Probably because you see it everywhere. Since you asked.

[MarjaE]

@bwv812

And in the Bahrain context, the US did speak out against the regime’s violence there.

While providing supplies and training for the regime’s violence there. You can look it up, I’ve mentioned this in my last post.

[JonasEggeater]

Why in blazes are you suggesting that “honey” is misogynistic? It has been used for ages as an endearing term, not limited by gender. Clearly, @Cowicide used it sarcastically, but that doesn’t make it misogynistic.

Apparently, you’re now using unfounded ad hominems against people who disagree with you. Could you take it back a notch?

This is obviously an issue which we all feel very strongly about, but there’s no reason to let the discussion disintegrate into attacks on character.

[bwv812]

@time

Your whole argument is based on some imaginary moral high ground. The US is against protester suppression. The US is spreading democracy. We beat our protesters less. US democracy is better than their democracy. Our corrupt politicians are better than their corrupt politicians.

The high ground really isn’t imaginary. Russia has invaded; the US hasn’t. Yanukovich used live ammunition on protestors; the US hasn’t in a long time. The US ranks much better on corruption indices than Russia or Ukraine. And in other parts I’m not trying to carve out high ground but to counter your ridiculous arguments, such as that the US spent $5 billion in order to overthrow this particular regime.[quote=“time, post:179, topic:24467”]
I get it. Just say that you(US) know what is best for the Ukrainian people and that they should all be like you(US).
[/quote]
I’m not American, and I don’t think the state of democracy in the US is ideal… but I do think it’s better than Ukraine’s.

@time

The Russian flags flying in Ukraine lead me to believe a good portion of the people in Ukraine don’t agree with you.

Sure. And some of those people planting Russian flags in Ukraine aren’t even Ukraine citizens but are Russians from Moscow. Which isn’t entirely surprising given the number of Russian troops in Ukraine. But hey, I’m sure you’ll say that the US does the same thing.

Anyway, I haven’t said anything, anywhere, that ethnic Russians in Ukraine don’t deserve political representation or that their rights shouldn’t be respected. I have said it’s madness to think of removing Russian as an official language. My comments have basically been to the effect that the invasion is wrong and that I’m not seeing the revolution as the product of US interference.

@JonasEggeater

Why in blazes are you suggesting that “honey” is misogynistic? It has been used for ages as an endearing term, not limited by gender. Clearly, @Cowicide used it sarcastically, but that doesn’t make it misogynistic.

The use of such terms in order to reinforce or inculcate a sense of dominance—as is the case here—is clearly sexist. When you dismiss someone while calling them honey, darling, love, sweetheart, or anything along those lines you are attempting to marginalize them by associating them with a feminine quality. It’s patronizing, sexist, and reflects a mindset that to be feminine is to be weak and unsuited to the manly art of rational argument. That’s misogynist in my book.

If you truly object to attacks based on character, perhaps you should ask Cowicide not to put people down by calling them “honey” (a term of endearment between people who are close to one another it ain’t), to refrain from telling people they’re little doggies barking up the wrong tree, and other such nonsense.

[JonasEggeater]

@bwv812

The use of such terms in order to reinforce or inculcate a sense of dominance—as is the case here—is clearly sexist. When you dismiss someone while calling them honey, darling, love, sweetheart, or anything along those lines is to attempt to marginalize them by associating them with a feminine quality. It’s patronizing, sexist, and reflects a mindset that to be feminine is weak and unsuited to the manly art of rational argument. That’s misogynist in my book.

If you truly object to attacks based on character, perhaps you should ask Cowicide not to put people down by calling them “honey”—a term of endearment between people who are close to one another it ain’t—to refrain from telling people they’re little doggies barking up the wrong tree, and other such nonsense.

I really disagree with your statement that “honey” is sexist. Here, let me give you a definition:

informal
an excellent example of something.
“it’s one honey of an adaptation”

darling; sweetheart (usually as a form of address).
"hi, honey!"
synonyms:	sweetheart, darling, dear, dearest, love.

Maybe where you come from, “honey” is considered insulting, but around here, I get called honey every time that I have breakfast at a diner, and I don’t mind in the least. Obviously. It’s just a term of endearment. It’s really not a sexist term, in my knowledge.

[bwv812]

@MarjaE

The United States provided training and tear gas. John Timoney, who organized crackdowns on protests in Philadelphia and Miami, helped train Bahraini police during the crackdowns there.

Are you suggesting that the US should prevent its citizens from working for certain private employers? Or that the actions of a private citizen should be imputed to the US government?

And it appears that the tear gas was supplied by South Korea, while a wide variety of nations supply arms to Bahrain, including the USA.

@MarjaE

None recently. But the police station snipers during any major protest, if the police in the streets were in any danger, the snipers on the buildings would shoot. If American protests which didn’t suit the government escalated the way the Ukrainian protests had, the American police would probably shoot.

It may seem that way to you, from where you are, but the idea of this happening would strike almost every Westerner as very unlikely. And if protestors actually thought that the police would shoot, then they probably wouldn’t be out there protesting: I don’t think very many people feel that strongly about what they are protesting and feel that methods not involving their own death are more constructive.

[JonasEggeater]

@bwv812

And it appears that the tear gas was supplied by South Korea

Fantastic. Clearly, the US wasn’t involved in any way.

[teapot]

This is just Putin’s post Olympics powergrab… he gets a little sad when there’s nothing to watch on TV anymore so he likes to get a bit attacky.

Georgia? Well at least in that case they actually were protecting the people who were having missiles shot at them… all the while helping themselves to 20% of Georgia. Anyone who says this is a legitimate incursion is a Russian kiss-ass or entirely deluded. They have no right to be there. I wish we’d have all boycotted the olympics, even though I do enjoy watching the winter ones. I just hope the sanctions bite, but sadly I think we’re kidding ourselves. Russia doesn’t need trade with anyone to survive and they already make a bundle selling energy into Europe that can not otherwise be provided.

[smartr]

@bwv812

I believe the Crimean PM has put independence on the May ballot.

I’m just going to throw out that the current “PM” is there from an “election” that happened this past week after Russia sent a bunch of troops in. I’m not sure anyone is sure how such an “election” happened so quickly, but if we’re going by recent history, the Russian Unity party he is the leader of only has 3 out of the 100 seats in Crimea’s parliament. From a population percentage, Ron Paul is about 20 times more popular of a political movement in the US and still doesn’t stand a chance in actually winning bigger elections than a seat in congress. Maybe Crimea is more sympathetic and less polarized to his politics, but last I checked people don’t take elections seriously when a bunch of armed goons threaten the local “minority” when they vote.

[Cowicide]

Should Russian troops be taking over Crimea? Yes No

Naybe.

[petzl]

Yeah, I didn’t expect a serious answer.

I guess with you it’s apparently all about driving web traffic to Stephen Cohen links, which have nothing to do with Crimea.

[Cowicide]

I guess with you it’s apparently all about driving web traffic to Stephen Cohen links

Yes, it’s a conspiracy. Wait, I thought I was supposed to be Alex Jones?

which have nothing to do with Crimea

How the hell would you know? You’ve already admitted that you haven’t bothered to listen to him, yet you still managed to make hysterical comparisons to 9-11 truthers and infowars.com in ignorance.

Yeah, I didn’t expect a serious answer

The problem is I can’t take you seriously. You drum up false arguments with me from the very beginning. Then you have a hissy fit when I call you out on it. If you want respect, then admit where you make mistakes instead of flying off the handle. You’re acting like an idiot.