Printed is nice, but the best old stuff is written.
I used to have a facsimile copy of Galileo’s notebooks. Scribbled out bits, notes in the margins, etc. Glorious.
Dava Sobel’s very worthwhile Galileo’s Daughter uses a font that was based on Sister Marie Celeste’s (AKA Ms Galileo Jr) handwriting, BTW.
I don’t think anyone suggests it was the first, just that it is the (current) oldest.
“The best part of the Internet is that you can put someone’s name on any old shit.” – Plato
Here’s the link I was looking for: http://www.bl.uk/collection-items/the-diamond-sutra
I love the BL, even though it’s a loot museum. It’s hard to hold the wrongs of the past against them when they do such a great job of making their stuff available to the world today.
What ‘Sumerian reigious book’ or ‘Hindu religious book’ can you cite with proof that is older than 5500-3100 BCE?
Many of the mythical gods and goddesses of ancient Africa-Kemet are pre-dynastic (before 3100 BCE). Osiris and other African gods and goddesses referred to as 'The Black Anu are pre-dynastic.
Ti-seti, and other Sub-Saharan pre-dynastic civilizations had religious writings; and were in existence thousands of years before the beginning of the African-Kemetic dynasties.
African civilization (an advanced civilization) is ‘The Cradle of Civilization’ and existed before India, Sumaria, Mesopotamia, Asia, The Middle East or Europe etc even existed.
The earliest extant Sumerian texts were found in Abu Salabikh and date around 2600 BCE
These are the earliest extant texts, there may have been others well before these that were not preserved.
The earliest extant Egyptian texts are the Pyramid Texts which date around 2400 BCE
Again these are the earliest extant texts, and there may have been others well before these that were not preserved.
The use of glyphs/symbols predates texts, though most are untranslated/not textual. Sumer developed these a few thousand years earlier than Egypt around 8000 BCE.
We can speculate about earlier textual traditions. Nobody’s making the claim that the topics in these texts do not date to an earlier preliterate tradition, but the discussion was mostly about texts. Indic, Sumerian, or Egyptian oral traditions are something we can only speculate about regarding dating, though it’s safe to assume all had been going on well before they were written.
There is solid archaeological evidence of Sumer developing a large city and an advanced culture in Ur near 5000 BC. In 5000 BC Egypt was still neolithic villages with the most advanced being Badari which was a collection of fishing villages with huts. So far as I’m aware Egypt developed a more advanced society in no small part from trade relations with Sumeria, borrowing cylinder seals, technology, and Sumerian-styling and influence in their early architecture.
There is no cradle of civilization. Chinese, Harappan/Indus Valley, Sumerian, and various Meso-American civilizations developed independently and there are other less well known civilizations that also developed independently in Crete, Iran, the Danube Valley, and elsewhere. The earliest known civilization was Sumeria, though.
I’m pretty sure you won’t accept anything I consider proof, unfortunately
But why did you choose those dates? The Egyptian Book of the Dead isn’t that old. It’s about the same age as the Rig Veda, give or take a few centuries, and although nobody knows how old either one of them really is, it’s absurd to pick a date thousands of years earlier than anyone has claimed the Book of the Dead to be. The Nile peoples barely had agriculture in 5500 BC, much less writing. Even the funerary texts that preceded the Book of the Dead aren’t that old. Even the Palermo stone isn’t that old.
The Kesh Temple Hymn is a Sumerian religious text that is definitely older than the Book of the Dead. My Hindu friends tell me there is an ancient Indo-European text called On Breathing that is the oldest known religious text, structured as a dialog between Lakshmi and Shiva, but I can’t find any English language confirmation of that claim.
Not according to the archaeologists.
They say the Nile civilization didn’t begin to develop from the earlier, more primitive agricultural villages until around 3100 BC, about half a century after the Tigris/Euphrates civilization formed.
The usual order goes Mesopotamia, Egypt, the mysterious Indus valley civilization, and then China on the Yellow river. I was taught that this order is supported by stratigraphy and cultural influence on artifacts and has been verified by more modern techniques, but I haven’t done any of the data analysis or grid digging personally, if you know what I mean. 
Oh, I see @nemomen already addressed most of this. Well done!
Since Indic traditions were oral for a very long time, dating is basically impossible. Even the Vedas weren’t written down until around 500 BCE, though linguistic analysis suggests a much earlier composition. Also Hindus can tend to back-date their texts for religious reasons, so, for example, some claim the Upanishads were composed around 1000 BC, despite borrowings of Buddhist ideas and terms that date them well later.
What? I’m sure nobody here would ever do that!
Oh, dammit, I’ve dropped my monocle in my drink again. I must stop being so shocked.
In the creation myth of Judaism and Christianity one finds for some strange reason two passages where man is created–Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2::6-7
The two creation myths of man are different. In the first creation of man in Genisis, man is created in the image of god after his likeness, apparently in consultation with other celestial bengs in heaven. “Let ‘us’ make man in ‘our’ image”–This created man is given dominion over the earth.
In the second creation of man in Genesis, man is created from the mist, water and dust of the earth–and god then provides the breath of life that makes man a living soul.
What is also interesting is the similarities and writing styles found in the mythical and older African-Kemtic/Anu “Book of Coming Forth From Darkness Into Light” or “Book of Coming Forth by Day” (Book of the Dead).
Genesis 1:26–31
Excerpt from Grebaut, Hymne a Ammon-Ra, Paris 1874; and Wiedemann, Die Religion, p. 64ff (Preserved on Papyrus, Giza Egyptian Museum, Cairo)
“…Father of the gods, thou beautiful bull of the company of gods, thou chief of all gods, lord of Maat, father of the gods, creator of men, maker of beasts and cattle, lord of all that existeth, maker of the staff of life, creator of men, maker of beasts and cattle.…Thou art the creator of things celestial and terrestrial, thou illuminest the universe.…Thou makest the herbs for the use of beasts and cattle, and the staff of life for the need of man. Thou givest life to the fish of the stream and to the fowl of the air, and breath unto the germ in the egg; thou givest life unto the grasshopper, and thou makest to live the wild fowl and things that creep and things that fly and everything that belongeth thereunto. Thou providest food for the rats in the holes and for the birds that sit among the branches.…thou One, thou only One whose arms are many. All men and all creatures adore thee, and praises come unto thee from the height of heaven, from earth’s widest space, and from the deepest deepest depths of the sea.… thou One, thou only One who hast no second …whose names are manifold and innumerable…”
Genesis 2:6-7
The Doctrine of Eternal Life
“I am whole, even as my father Khepera [Khepri] was whole, who is to me the type of that which passeth not away, Come then, O Form, and give breath unto me, O lord of breath.”
Magical Texts in the Mummy Chamber and the Funeral Chamber Speech of Isis
“Isis saith: I have come to be a protector unto thee. I waft unto thee air for thy nostrils, and the north wind which cometh forth from the god Tem [Atum] unto thy nose. I have made whole for thee thy windpipe. I make thee to live like a god.sis saith: I have come to be a protector unto thee. I waft unto thee air for thy nostrils, and the north wind which cometh forth from the god Tem [Atum] unto thy nose. I have made whole for thee thy windpipe. I make thee to live like a god.”
Chapter of Snuffiing the Air with Water in Khert-Neter (Underworld) Spell against Heart Robbers
“Hail Tem [Atum]. Grant thou unto me the sweet breath which dwelleth in thy nostrils, I am he who embraceth that great throne.… I keep watch over the Egg of Kenkenur [i.e., the Great Cackler, a goose]. I grow and flourish [as] it groweth and flourisheth. I live [as] it liveth. I snuff the air [as] it snuffeth the air [or, my breath is its breath].”
A Hymn of Praise to Ra when He Riseth on the Horizon and when He Setteth in the Land of Life
“Let me breathe the air which cometh forth from thy nostrils and the north wind which cometh forth from thy mother Nut. Make thou my Spirit-soul to be glorious, O
Osiris, make thou my Heart-soul to be divine.”
THE PARABLE OF THE BITTER TEA
by Rev. Dr. Hypocrates Magoun, P.P.
POEE PRIEST, Okinawa Cabal
When Hypoc was through meditating with St. Gulik, he went there into the kitchen where he busied himself with preparing the feast and in his endeavor, he found that there was some old tea in a pan left standing from the night before, when he had in his weakness forgot about its making and had let it sit steeping for 24 hours. It was dark and murky and it was Hypoc’s intention to use this old tea by diluting it with water. And again in his weakness, chose without further consideration and plunged into the physical labor of the preparations. It was then when deeply immersed in the pleasure of that trip, he had a sudden loud clear voice in his head saying “it is bitter tea that involves you so.” Hypoc heard the voice, but the struggle inside intensified, and the pattern, previously established with the physical laboring and the muscle messages coordinated and unified or perhaps coded, continued to exert their influence and Hypoc succummed to the pressure and he denied the voice.
And again he plunged into the physical orgy and completed the task, and Lo as the voice had predicted, the tea was bitter.
The moral of this parable? Always listen to the voices in your head.
You posted this:
“They say the Nile civilization didn’t begin to develop from the earlier, more primitive agricultural villages until around 3100 BC, about half a century after the Tigris/Euphrates civilization formed.”
3100 BCE is the beginning of the African-Kemetic dynasties. The pre-dynastic period is from 5500-3100 BCE. There were African cultures and dynasties before the African-Kemetic dynastic period–and even before the pre-dynastic period.
Calling ancient Nile Valley Civilizations primitive is the same old parroted, dogmatic and arrogant racist white supremacy, that promotes the ridiculous and bigoted clam that nothing of consequence occurred until Europe or code for Europe “Mesopotamia” existed.
Life on this earth began in Africa.
All of the oldest near complete human skeletal remains of human ancestors have been found in East Africa. All the stages of human development have been found in Africa and nowhere else on earth.
Try finding anything in Mesopotamia that rivals “The Great Pyramid” or "The Mask of Tutankamen (King Tut) and other structures or artifacts in Africa. As the Japanese found out, try building a structure identical to “The Great Pyramid”
Your claim is synonymous with ethnically biased Eurocentric archeologist who claim the people of ancient Kemet were white or Arab, Christopher Columbus discovered America–and the Greeks were the fathers of philosophy, when Greece was jailing, exiling and killing the Greek philosophers.
You know, I’m fairly certain the term “brainwashing” didn’t exist in Einstein’s lifetime.
You really think that all these cultures “developed civilization” - featuring glyphs that can only be seen from the air - independently?
It dates back to the Korean War and Einstein died in 1955, so it’s possible he might have used it. However, that quote is so far removed from Einstein’s normal style that attribution to him seems doubtful.
(Of the three quotes attributed to him there, one is taken from his letters and the other two are generally only attributed to him on various websites full of unverifiable quotations. It should be easy to spot which one is known to have been said by him.)
I thought it began under the sea:
I have a question for Jesus: Of all the threads that @popobawa4u has graced, why not this one?
