Having also lived in China, I’d say that white men were generally given an easier ride than any other demographic. Sometimes it was just embarassing. I had lower expectations, more respect when I did something good, more freedom, a much better chance at a job than someone with a Chinese or brown face (even if they were much more qualified), a higher salary, much lower chance of being arrested… I was also less likely to be fully accepted in the culture as an insider and people would assume that I couldn’t speak their language (although a lot of the time, they would try to speak English rather than ignoring me), but I didn’t experience anything beyond hints of what others experience. My experience was nothing like the educated and dedicated African Americans I knew who couldn’t find a decent job, or the first language English Filipinos with decades of experience who had to work privately (and eventually leave the country) because they had the wrong face/passport. Meanwhile I had white colleagues without proper training who would occasionally turn up to kids classes half drunk or make passes at adult students without consequences. Even white women would sometimes ask me to do something for them because they knew I would be more respected than they were.
Mod note: @popobawa4u and @albill Stay on topic
IOW, if feminists are talking to non-feminists about something they want to call the patriarchy, and the non- (actually, anti-) feminists deny all evidence for the feminist position and continue to insist, cluelessly, that the social order does not benefit men (and worse, as I have heard from some, that “it actually benefits women, hurrrrrr!”), and thus the term “patriarchy” doesn’t fit, then those at fault would be the feminists. Got it :-/
For white males working there on the usual expat circuit ( ie. being an English teacher; student in a prestige University with many other foreigners; or working for a company trading with the West), the superficial benefits are as you say — although it not infrequently comes with the downside of being just there for show, with no real influence. The disadvantages of being black and in particular black African in China? Awful. All agreed. But the differing treatment meted out to each probably represents the reaction to their perceived wealth or potential connections abroad, combined with the comparative advantage of having a 关系 relationship with someone from the currently affluent and influential West versus exploitable and impoverished Africa. If the potential connections aren’t there, black and white alike would be treated with the same casual disregard as the non-Han PRC minorities.
My experience differed because my wife (although not from PRC) is a native Chinese speaker and dropped us deep into the local culture. She found us very modest accommodation where white faces are rare. She was able to adapt and thrive very quickly because she looks and sounds native. She could pass, I could not. So I got to experience what it’s like to be a minority living amongst a strong majority culture, without the all privilege that goes with the expat circuit.
But if that example doesn’t do it for you, are white males the “default humanity” in Japan or Indonesia or much of the Middle East?
And if you still think POC can’t be racist, hit google and read up on how China treats its minorities.
It’s entirely possible to be factually correct in every aspect, yet lose your audience because of the way you argue or because you present your opponent with an unpalatable loss if you are seen to win.
If (in your example) you respond to “it actually benefits women, hurrrrrr!” dude with:
“Well, it does benefit some women, that’s true. Some women also perpetuate the patriarchy by giving men who don’t fit the stereotype of what a man should be a hard time. Likewise some men are disadvantaged in comparison to women in some job environments or when there is conscription or a draft. But we call it a patriarchy because it benefits many more men than women and it’s a system that works to the particular advantage of powerful males. We want to work for a future where no-one is disadvantaged or treated unfairly because of what the genetic lottery gave them …”
If you aren’t talking to a troll then it might at least give him pause for thought or even persuade because you heard his point —badly phrased and irritating though it was— and (partly) accepted it before presenting a counter argument. Even if you are talking to a troll you haven’t lost anything —because it wasn’t going to listen anyway and you’ve been so boring it’ll probably just go away to look for easier prey.
Respond with indignation and you’re potentially someone’s plaything for the lulz; to be poked and prodded and made to squeal, because there’s nothing more fun for a troll than impotent frothing righteous indignation. Or worse yet, if you’re responding to a man who’s been abused by women, you’re just confirming his prejudice.
I definitely agree that POC can be racist, and I saw more casual racism in China than in western counties. India is another place where racial discrimination is built into the system, despite efforts to outlaw it. However, in the case of India it’s not at all clear that the caste system was all that rigid before the British arrived. While caste existed, it seems that the power imbalance was exploited and exaggerated by westerners as a way to control the people (much as with the Hutu and Tutsi on the arrival of the Belgians).
One of the things that disturbed me in China was seeing the negative attitudes towards colour, such that even young children would associate a darker skin with negative qualities such as ugliness, violence and untrustworthiness. I’m not trying to claim that white people are completely to blame, but I think it’s quite clear that these stereotypes were influenced by western prejudices. While it’s true that some of the stereotypes of white people came from the idea of the west’s affluence, this doesn’t explain why it was specifically white men who were respected above everyone else. African or Indian Americans generally didn’t last long in a good job and weren’t respected as much, despite coming from the same background. I think if you go to a country like Japan you will not necessarily feel like the ‘default form of humanity’, but the point is that the global influences of colonialism and western culture often trump regional ideas, making POC feel ‘less than’, even where they are the majority in the area. Other cultures (such as in Japan or China) can certainly be racist on their own, but we shouldn’t underestimate the extent to which western racism has permeated global culture. I think the kind of treatment that many people around the world undergo in order to appear beautiful would support this theory.
My wife (rather grumpily, I thought at the time) set me straight on this one when I noted it. She made some comment about white people always thinking it’s about them?! 
Looking at the Chinese preference for paler skin and interpreting it as ‘wanting to look European’ is also filtering that preference through our own cultural lens and denying them their agency. East Asians are pretty pale when not sun exposed and affluent people can afford the time in the shade to stay pale. Poor people on the other hand go out in the sun to labour and go dark in the sun. (The white equivalent is being slim and tanned, in parts of Africa it’s being fat; which are also signifiers of affluence). It’s better to be seen as successful, therefore pale is good and dark is bad. Which is no excuse for being racist towards those whose genetic inheritance means they can never be pale or the classism implicit in the preference. But we’re probably off the hook on that one …
I’m not convinced white men are actually respected in China so much as used to project a “modern” and progressive image by English language schools (and some businesses) while being quietly resented. If you’ve worked in China as a language teacher you know that the job in many (most?) schools is based merely on whether you look the part or not.
I accept that western racism and colonialism have affected global culture for the worse in many ways. But we’d be flattering ourselves that we matter a jot to the way China’s 老百姓 think and that’s probably true of many other cultures around the world.
Obvs.
This way so many men have of saying the obvious to women as if they haven’t thought of it before (let alone practiced it), and of repeating what women have already said in a conversation as if the thoughts are their own original ones is just so tiresome. When it’s not infuriating.
That’s true, and seeing darker skin as a sign of lower social status is older than western culture. I’m not claiming that they don’t have their own prejudice, just that there is also a strong influence from the west. It’s not just colouring the skin, it’s also changing the shape of the eyes and other features, often to make them look more western. In some parts of Africa, even the ‘big is beautiful’ ideal is being challenged, despite strong culturally engrained associations of thin people with sickness, infertility and weakness.
As for the skin colour thing, my adopted son is no darker than I am (although the tone is slightly different). Still, his passport photo was photoshopped by the official office to make him look paler. When we were in public with him and our birth daughter, people would make comments about how much more attractive she looked.
I agree, but that’s part of the point. White men are associated with an attractive and modern ideal, even if individual white people (or white people in general) are resented for that fact. I’m sure plenty of POC feel the same way in America. I’m sure our bosses didn’t hire us because they loved white people, rather we were worth more to them than our Chinese colleagues simply because we had a white face and a western passport.
I don’t think that my personal opinion matters to them and I accept that they have their own independent culture. Still, we are all influenced by global ideals as well as national and regional ones, and those who are further from the demographic usually associated with power and beauty will have a harder time.
Absolutely true. I lived in Oakland for years, and the actual conditions in Oakland are highly relevant to why a group for girls of color is desperately needed. In particular, the Oakland Police Department is overtly racist, and they deliberately attack public gatherings of black people.
I lived near Lake Merritt, and saw mounted police riding over black people who were simply sitting on the lawn. There used to be a really great annual jazz festival in the summer at Lake Merritt, but it closed down permanently after the OPD decided to shut it down by sending in riot cops to beat down young black people who were just listening to music.
Not long before I moved out of Oakland, there was a “controversy” over “side shows”, in which young people – mostly black – would gather in empty parking lots at night and show off their cars. The police were strongly opposed to this, of course. I happened to be at an Oakland City Council meeting for a different issue, when I saw two representatives of the OPD come in to harangue the City Council for their lack of action on “side shows”. The officers were literally wearing knee high jackboots, and when they entered, the council members fell silent, and exchanged nervous glances. I think one even shivered. One council member dared to comment that it didn’t seem like an urgent problem, since there were no reports of injuries, property damage, or anything actually illegal happening, and since they usually occurred in parking lots well after business hours, only a few complaints about noise. The police representatives proceeded to call out the demands from local merchants and real estate developers (see: gentrification) to end side shows, particularly emphasizing the demands from the district of a council member who was regarded as particularly liberal.
The whole interaction said a lot to me about how politics in Oakland actually play out, and I think it explains much of what happened with Mayor Jean Quan and her flip-flopping in relation to Occupy, a few years later.
Anyway, speaking of gentrification, that’s one reason why the Radical Brownies may want to postpone admitting white children: there’s been a major push for gentrification of downtown Oakland for years, which I think is at the root of the attacks on public gatherings of black people, so there would be real reason to worry about this new group immediately getting “gentrified”.
There is a difference between political affiliations and the structure of our society is ideological/political.
If it’s obvious, why does quickly typed trolley bait get posted so frequently?
Isn’t presenting someone else’s ideas as your own just a power thing? I’ve had plenty of female colleagues, seniors and bosses —they aren’t uncommon in health— and had them do it to me as well. You’d have to work hard to persuade me that it isn’t just ambitious human bad behaviour —and that you’re working with a skewed sample (which we’ll agree isn’t right in itself) of disproportionately more male bosses.
Sure, and plenty of dog owners are mean to their dogs, too. And dogs can even be mean to their owners! But, that’s not the topic/discussion at hand, amirite?
What would be skewed about that kind of sample? Most bosses are male.
You seem to have real difficulty staying on topic here, the particular “power thing” at hand (you know, girls pushing social justice, the patriarchy, etc.).
This is a succinct summary of what troubles me! And relates back to the OP. I celebrate when people organize because it seems they so rarely do. To me, to speak of “social structure” as being either social or structure depends entirely upon a formal basis for implementing such a thing. An informal social structure would be a complete contradiction. The idea that it’s merely some emergent phenomenon strikes me as being superstitious and extremely dangerous, not unlike getting a ride from somebody who depends upon Their God or Market Forces to steer their car. Thanks anyway, I’ll walk!
The skew I was referring to depends on whether you are sampling to look at behaviour of “bosses” —in which case more men than women is representative— or sampling to look for human behaviour. In the latter case the sample needs 50:50 male:female split before you can determine whether men or women exhibit a particular behaviour more. Generalising the behaviour of men by the behaviour of bosses isn’t good science.
You’re right, I have helped it wander. What can I say? I’m bored and fancied a conversation that wasn’t about work or domestic issues to stretch my horizons a bit … 
Want to split it off or take it offline to PM?
Bosses? They must be nearly extinct by now!
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