Well, yeah, but that isn’t what this line of reasoning is. What GregS said, and I agree with, is if you a busy hiding evidence you probably have a reason.
The “If you’ve got nothing to hide” argument would apply if someone were trying to search random homes for possible evidence. That isn’t what is going on. Evidence is being collected and shipped off to parts unknown, including the bodies of people with families.
I think all Michael was saying was that we legally try to presume innocence. In this case, both groups are charging each other with guilt - and no real investigation has occurred.
Unfortunately, none will, or at least none of value. That’s also what you guys seem to be saying. So much evidence has already been destroyed or removed (both by looters and by the separatists under the watch of the Russians) that there’s little chance much more information will come to light from the scene (it’s been destroyed). So, it’s understandable that you guys are resting on information already discovered and disclosed.
It is a horrible situation.
I think that’s something we can all agree on.
For a counter-narrative read this:
here’s one quote:
What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate
information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence
agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery
that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been
under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look
like Ukrainian uniforms.
The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the
possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in
similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were
Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers
involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed
what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source
said.
Instead of pressing for these kinds of details, the U.S. mainstream
press has simply passed on the propaganda coming from the Ukrainian
government and the U.S. State Department, including hyping the fact that
the Buk system is “Russian-made,” a rather meaningless fact that gets
endlessly repeated.
sounds legit.
Hey, he said it was a counter narrative. Maybe he meant an anti-narrative?
Of course Ygret is a western troll paid by CIA.
Why otherwise would he make the pro-Russian government and media look like a manipulating, lying gang of criminal sociopaths?
Meh… NATO should be bombing these doucheturds already.
We’ve got Ygret over here explaining why it couldn’t possibly be the separatists, except that he’s clearly not been reading what has happened here: Particularly the part where a separatist commander posted to FB and his blog videos of a plane going down accompanied with commentary about how they’d hit a Ukranian military aircraft. When they got to the crash site and realised it was a civilian plane he deletes the FB and blog posts and makes another one saying “well, we told you not to fly in our airspace”.
Of course this is all just me being brainwashed by the “MSM” or NSA/GCHQ changing cached pages on archive.org for the purposes of casting guilt on the commie pinkos.
Once upon a time the world did stuff when Russia was acting up. Now we just handle them with kid gloves in case they turn off the gas and oil supply to Europe. Ukraine’s allies should have rallied and snuffed out these grotty scumbags when Russia first started taking control of Crimea. When your enemy are taking control of your military installations, you’re not supposed to give them the keys, you’re supposed to fight them to the death.
You joke, but I think he’s just a trolley, not a paid shill. There’s a strange kind of academic leftism that’s fueled the tinfoil-hats of the last decade. They mean well, but they attack the realpolitik of Strauss and Kissinger and their midgetey offspring (Cheney, etc.) by becoming its mirror. So they deny or minimize the realpolitik of New Russia and Putin in favor of tipping the scales in any discussion to cause maximum rhetorical damage to what they see as the worst kind of realpolitik, which is anything the U.S. does.
They forget that the realpolitik of Western oligarchs has to go through a number of public, democratically-elected-republican layers. The realpolitik of Putin and Assad and the Kims has much less oversight, so they tend to do pretty spectacular amounts of damage without having to worry about public opinion turning. If all the U.S. had was Fox News, the false equivalence put forward by folks like @Ygret might be less false. But as far back as 2006 the U.S. got the lessen on realpolitik and re-established some sanity to government. It’s never going to be enough sanity for the likes of Ygret, but that’s too bad.
What these twitchy alpha-nutters never seem to get is the fact that it’s realpolitik in general that’s the enemy. It’s not a tool to be repurposed. The tool for real change is observation on the ground, communication, and granting agency to people who aren’t carrying guns and justifying their behavior and spewing hysterically bad talking points.
@Ygret is going for some sort of record here… we need a bingo card to keep with this this guy!
*Realpolitik
*Mainstream Media
*Sheep(le)
*False-Flag
*“Scare Quotes on things he disagrees with”
*Analogies that revolve around being fed/swallowing/bending over
Uh, no. See that’s exactly the way it shouldn’t be going. You seem very nonchalant about starting a war, or is that not what you’re suggesting? Maybe you think that indiscriminately bombing certain parts of the Ukraine is a good idea (hey, remember Kosovo in 1999)?
Also, I really don’t know what you mean by “the world did stuff when Russia was acting up”? Certainly, nobody did anything during the Cold War. It was a series of proxy conflicts between two nuclear superpowers that mostly screwed over other countries, not Russia.
Honestly, your post is nearly as creepy as Ygret’s bizarre defense of the Russian separatists.
Ho dude. Whether the missile system was made in Russia or in Lilliput, doesn’t matter. If the statement that 3 launchers crossed from Russia hours before the incident, and returned after the incident, is true, then there’s a revolting pall of Russian smoke over the airliner.
Certainly Chimpy McBushitler would not be above such a fiendish action, but Barack Obama, Tribune of the People?? Say it ain’t so!!!
You seem to have the facts wrong, Ygret. Yanukovich fled the country after ordering his shock troops to fire on his own people. The same Yanukovich that had looted $100 billion from his own country. The same Yanukovich that lived in a palace with a party boat and golden loaves of bread on a salary that could not possibly afford such extravagances. Yanukovich fled the country like the coward he is because his violent thievery was exposed and he could not possibly justify it.
Poroshenko was elected by an overwhelming majority on May 25, 2014. Perhaps you missed that election.
The people of Ukraine want freedom. They also want to live in a country where crooks like Yanukovich and his ilk don’t steal their hard earned money. This is something that Putin can not understand and refuses to tolerate. Russia has since violated the territorial integrity of a sovereign nation by sending it’s troops into Ukraine. As a result, innocents have lost their lives, most recently the 300 on MH17.
Do the owners of that site understand the implications of calling themselves a “consortium”?
Yeah, that’s the ticket. I’m sure Russia will totally understand and not want to escalate in response to the West bombing Russians near the border. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCpjgl2baLs
If the separatists were involved, they were hoping to prevent the Ukies from dropping white phosphorus and fragmentation rounds on their civilian neighborhoods. Those are real war crimes, by the way.
And what if the statement is true that Kiev ATC ordered the flight to alter its course to fly over the conflict zone, and escorted it with military jets until minutes before the crash? To whom does that smoke belong?
And why did the SBU not allow a public inquiry of the ATC audio tapes?
A Key Piece of video evidence debunked, by the way.
Or perhaps you can go back to the theory that the Internet is all lies…
Reference please. I haven’t read that anywhere.
Is there any argument that Putin did not pass immense amounts of weapons, ordinance and vehicles into Russia in the preceding month?
Even Putin himself did not deign to say the Russians had nothing to do with it whatsoever. He blamed the west for the situation in Ukraine, and Ukraine for the accident, without specifying any cause.
He just mocked in the aftermath.
But come on - I’ll read any non-crazy stuff you have to put out here.
