I responded to comments that I found to be short-sighted and too trusting of US government assertions. And no, my points have not been addressed at all except with glib jibes and vague mocking. Not a single one of you has answered why you are so willing to trust the proof-free assertions of the US government after so many lies. And not a single one has even begun to question the wall of “reporting” that paints this entire affair as Putin’s fault. In any complicated event like this there would normally be all sorts of conflicting data yet curiously that is missing from mainstream accounts.
Rebels seize MH17 plane crash black boxes and bodies, human remains shipped on train to unknown site
Don’t-push-your-luck dragon incoming in 3, 2, 1 …
Yeah, that’s what everyone’s doing to you. Uh-huh.
As I said… using phrases such as MSM, sheep, etc. label your commentary as that of someone who is unhinged.
I guess Al Jazeera is now just a mouth peice for the west as well?
Find me any site that casts legitimate doubt on the explanations of the US govt that doesn’t end in .ru
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Yeah… time to summon him I think. Everyone flag ygret’s post above davide’s one.
DavidE only popcorn eater in game of troll baiting.
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Meanwhile, the black boxes have been turned over and the bodies are being sent home.
But please, carry on.
If this is the “evidence” we’re reduced to relying on its awfully thin. And what’s more, all through this thread I’ve posited two potential events. Either it was the Ukrainian army in some sort of false flag OR it was the separatists and they made a very bad mistake. My goal through this thread has been to get people to realize we just don’t know what’s happened, and might possibly never know. And please don’t take one of my statements out of context again to claim I’ve been saying something different.
Also, magically springing to life and saying “It wuz him wut dun it!”
Or maybe the Dutch equivelent.
The problem you’re having here is that most of us simply don’t accept your false flag explanation. We don’t think it’s a likely reality.
“Scare quoting” my evidence doesn’t help your argument. It’s some evidence, and that’s more than I’ve seen to support Russia’s accusations… Of that I’ve seen nothing. I asked you for any examples that support your other potential event and aren’t hosted via .ru
Your lack of any salient examples goes to show that my “evidence” trumps your gut feeling (which is all you’re going on).
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Since I’m only really trying to step in to keep things honest here:
Crimea is not simply Ukranian “territory” - it’s more complicated than that.
I’ll try to keep this one short.
As I wrote before, Crimea is considered to be an independent state within Ukraine. Prior to 1991, it served as an Oblast within the USSR. When the USSR collapsed in 1991, a referendum in Crimea voted for separately from other parts of Ukraine for independence - and it passed at 54% - even though about 60% of the population is of Russian descent. Crimea was too small to last as a wholly independent state, and so has closely tied themselves to Ukraine as an autonomic republic called the “Autonomous Republic of Crimea” (1992 and reaffirmed 1996).
Because they are smaller than Ukraine, Crimea acts as a state within another country. They haven’t had a separate vote in foreign affairs, and their leader for foreign affairs was automatically the President of Ukraine. Still, they have internally held up their own politics, and have had their own elections and even a President while tied to Ukraine. The problem they have is that they are physically small and very desirable - they can’t go it alone, and need to be able to work with whoever they decide to give some political control over them.
When Russia annexed Crimea this year , they claimed the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol as its subjects. (That’s where the Russian navy was harbored thanks to a treaty signed by Russia, Crimea, and Ukraine!) So, Russia’s not providing any autonomy. They aren’t rescuing Crimea from Ukraine. They just want to return Crimea to the subject-status they held before the fall of the USSR - because Crimea has a strategically important port on the Black Sea, and right now the Russian Federation is in expansion mode.
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I actually did post one link from consortium news that was mocked as if they are some fly by night operation with no cred. My argument all along is that the certainty I’m seeing here is unjustified. I certainly did go too far in sounding certain in some of my posts but I tried to always make it clear that I don’t know what happened, and that its not wise for people to operate with such certainty when so little is really known, AND that the US government & MSM have behaved this way before, not even a year ago, with the Syrian chemical attack.
Oh, sweet… Such a timely turnover of evidence means it’s not as if anyone had time to edit or manipulate the recordings or device, right?
The bodies (that had been left sitting in black body bags in the sun) are now being “sent home” (actually to Amsterdam, not home). Hows about all the other evidence they looted from the crash scene? I imagine that’s in the next shipment, right?
It was really good of the scumbags in control there to ensure the crash site (which could, according to Russia, prove the rebel’s innocence) was left untouched so a thorough investigation can prove their innocence.
Oh, wait…
I understand that Crimea is a different and more nuanced case. Donetsk is definitely Ukrainian territory, and I believe “smartr” was referring to my comment about bombing these asshole rebels into smooshy pancakes.
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“consortium news” is some sort of fly-by-night operation. Have you ever read anything there before? Did you actually look to see it’s really just marketing bullshit for the author’s books? Apparently the dude broke stories about Iran Contra in the 80’s. Well, I’m glad we’ve got such a contemporary relevant journalist explaining things for us now.
Protip: If you can log in to the dashboard and it’s wordpress hosted (as that site is), it’s probably more fly-by-night than actual journalism.
That’s cool. 
I wasn’t trying to aggressively get into the middle of your conversation. I was just making sure that people keep things clear on what Crimea is (and isn’t). The Ukranian soldiers who are in Crimea are actively defending an independent state from takeover by the country that once held total dominion over them both. Less than half the population has militarily decided to back that annexation by the Russian Federation at a time when Ukraine is in total political disarray.
It’s important for people to have a clear picture of the context if they want to discuss this conflict. I’m just trying to help, not mess with people.
You’re right, this does have similarities to the W. Administration’s handling of the media. Unfortunately, the use of anonymous sources didn’t turn out well there, either. I forget whether we’re supposed to hate those methods or not.
Well, no, I’m being snarky. As I mentioned yesterday, you are operating under the assumption that the U.S. realpolitik is all-powerful and able to false flag a shootdown from hostile territory, blah-blah-Zz, and therefore the Russian realpolitik is weak as a kitten and maybe not very good, but the important thing is to talk about narratives and push a counter-narrative to the Evilest Narrative Machine… that you’ve pulled directly out of the air. Or perhaps, given your choice of insulting rhetoric, you’ve pulled it out of your butt.
Robert Parry is a respected journalist, and he also posts important stories from former CIA analysts that poke holes in much mainstream news reporting. If you need glitzy production values you should just watch television.
They were one of the first sites to poke holes in the Syrian chemical weapons story that turned out to be bullshit.
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You still don’t get it. The US didn’t have to pull off a false flag to benefit from it. The Syrian false flag chemical attack was carried out by Syrian rebels with help from Turkey, yet the US govt was right there with the talking points and all sorts of bullshit “proof”, much of it extremely similar to what we’re seeing now, that it HAD TO BE Assad’s government. They want it to be Putin so it is. Even WaPo has come out stating the certainty is overblown.
I appreciate your summary as I’ve not seen such a succinct explanation of the nuances anywhere else.
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Hosting your own material is not “glitzy production”, it’s what people who value their writing do. Shilling your own books on a site that’s supposedly “news” is pathetic.
Do you see Cory’s books popping up in the sidebar of BB?
