I actually read about the vehicle movements prior to the news of the plane coming down, in the context of an article decrying Putin’s stoking of tensions in the region. I’ve been hunting it, can’t recall where it is. Bummer, because it proves my point.
In any case, the larger and more important point: Russia has not denied that it moved masses of armaments into Ukraine over the last month.
You’d think that would be a first stop in the journey to a legitimate footing for argument.
Actually, the google search link you posted refers to the Malaysian plane that went down in the Pacific months ago. That’s MH317. MH17 is the Ukrainian-downed plane.
MH370 went off radar back in Spring.
MH317 was shot down whilst overflying Ukraine.
Have some coffee - I know you’ve been working hard at all this.
I’ve read those stories as well. They offer no proof though which means they are probably lies. In fact, the NY Times sent some reporters to eastern Ukraine to see for themselves and found absolutely nothing to indicate they had weaponry from Russia.
The whole narrative in the western media since the beginning of the Ukraine civil war that it was all Putin’s fault when we know through leaks of Victoria Nuland’s phone calls and speeches that the US ginned up the coup and civil war.
And I do recall Putin denying those stories. But again, those making the claims need to prove them.
The first link from YOUR google search returns this story with this quote:
“42 ships and 39 aircraft have now been deployed to search for MH317,”
said Transport Minister, Hishamuddin Hussein. “This is a multinational
operation.”
And please, almost all of the MSM is referring to it as MH17. As if it matters.
Actually, fair enough. MH17 seems to be the designation in common use. Previously, it was MH317.
Over to you.
@ygret The only person you are convincing of your points is yourself. Stop it and stop derailing these threads.
I agree with you to the extent that I don’t get how the West decided that the new Ukrainian government was good so quickly, and I don’t necessarily trust them or the Western media to be honest with the facts. Still, the more I see of this, the more ridiculous the Russian defense of their position seems. Making claims that require a huge amount of prior planning and secrecy by multiple governments to be true, crazy and mutually contradictory alternative explanations by the separatists, evidence of a Buk launcher entering Ukraine from Russia, being fired from a separatist-held area at the same time that the plane came down and returning to Russia shortly afterwards, evasion by the Russians and separatists… I find it very hard to believe that it was anything other than a misidentified plane or that the missile was fired at one plane and hit another and could just about imagine that it was actually fired by the Ukrainians, but I would need to see a lot more evidence before I can take a false flag theory seriously. Why would Ukraine be willing to bet absolute rejection by the West for a deliberate act of war in order to pin an act on Russia that nobody even thinks was deliberate (as you pointed out, it isn’t in their interests at all), and which will be unlikely to stop Russia from being involved, even with economic sanctions from the West? Why does listening to the separatists’ own statements give me the impression that they are terrible liars and are obviously hiding something?
Ukraine has been invaded by Lizardssss and is trying to re-join Russsssia.
Here’s one take on Putin’s credibility at home. Why, it sounds just like the kind if information WE are hearing!
Not.
A war between Russia and the United States, dude. Like, two nuclear superpowers fighting, right? Not Libya (although, I’d take a long, hard look at that conflict and what happened afterward, if I were you), that can’t do anything in return.
And “nobody did anything” means that Russia and the United States were never directly at war.
I have no idea why you’re bringing up the collapse of the USSR. Do you think that Reagan’s pointless belligerence accelerated the collapse? Do you know what happened next? Do you think that was a good thing?
Perhaps you believe that America propping up a bunch of right-wing dictators, aiding terrorists, and generally interfering in foreign affairs was a good idea?
Putin and his cronies are utter assholes and the Russian separatists really aren’t professional soldiers (although those kill civilians all the time too; it’s silly to believe otherwise). However, if your go-to reaction is the typical American response, then I genuinely worry about the future.
Wikipedia.
Hello All, I’ve stayed out of this until someone bothered to post a longer story directly relating to the thread, and that updated the information here. CNN just did that. In it, they quote Vitaly Nayda, Ukraine’s director of informational security, who makes the direct accusation that it was a Russian who shot down that plane.
I’m posting the link here because the discussion has centered much around what Russia and the U.S. have each said. Well, here’s what Ukraine is saying:
Vitaly Nayda, Ukraine’s director of informational security, made the accusation in an interview with CNN. The person was “absolutely” a Russian, he said. “A Russian-trained, well-equipped, well-educated officer … pushed that button deliberately.”
Russia is denying it, but saying that they’ll talk to the rebels. The rebels are saying that they couldn’t have done it alone. (They claim they didn’t do it at all.)
“This is an information war,” rebel leader Alexander Borodai said. “We don’t have the technical ability to destroy this plane. Ukrainians are not interested in the truth.”
The U.S. is saying that Russia must have been involved. Either they shot the plane down themselves or they trained the person who did it.
BTW - I’m not sure that people realize this: MH17 wasn’t somehow magically the first plane to be shot down over eastern Ukraine. Here’s a story about the other ones. On July 14, a Ukranian military transport plane was shot down over e. Ukraine at an altitude of about 21,000 ft. That has to have to been done with a missile, and Ukraine blamed Russia at the time, but was ignored.
The story I linked includes a chart showing what military capabilities are required for shooting at certain altitudes, and while the rebels most likely could not act alone - MH17 was shot down in air space where Ukrainian military planes have been going down.
What is this in reference to? It’s certainly not breaking news.
Why are you asking for proof from the US government? I thought you didn’t believe anything that they said? If the Russians are not supplying these criminals with weapons and vehicles, then how do you explain this?
Did these Russian criminals just buy their tanks and heavy weapons at the duty free shop on the UA-RUS border? And this is just one recent example.
Nooo. You postulate above, to clarify, that Kiev ATC re-directed the flight. A generic entry on how ATC works? Are you a bit lonely?
And you postulate that, because it was a nice day, the pilot just thought he’d fly over Novorossiya so everyone could look down and see what was going on?
The plane was the responsibility of Kiev ATC when it went down.
The previous ten iterations of that same flight missed the conflict zone, passing hundreds of kilometers to the south.
Even if those statements have any veracity, you stated that Kiev ATC re-directed the flight. Did they, or not?
I did not so state. Please pay attention for 2 or 3 seconds, OK?
I’ve stayed out of this but come on, you’ve already been quoted on this.
Please try to keep track of what you say.
(Now I’m outta this!)
and then more recently you said:
