Rebels seize MH17 plane crash black boxes and bodies, human remains shipped on train to unknown site

boing
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Look,

… and went on to indict and convict the Russians for this incident, without need of further facts.

And I mirrored that hypothetical with another ‘what if’ on the other side of this discussion. It was getting kinda lopsided with everbody piling on @Ygret.

And then added a fact: the flight was the responsibility of Kiev at the time it crashed. I didn’t call them ‘Nazis’ nor genuflect in the direction of the east Ukr resistance here. It’s just that reflexively parroting the “Putin’s fault” tagline is a bit premature when the evidence is so poorly represented here.

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But it’s not reflexive parroting. Surely you know BB is populated by skeptics?

Short of all of the news in the last 12 months being utter rubbish, everywhere short of Moscow, there is a substantial scaffold within which the story fits without any funny angles.

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Protip: if an “article” contains obvious bias in references to perceived enemies of the publication, it’s probably opinion not news.

In the second paragraph:
Because batshit crazy Samantha “R2P” Power said so

No real news organisation would ever include such direct vitriol in its reporting, unless quoting someone.

who already knows everything, with no evidence whatsoever

^This is patently ignorant. Where do you think the US has its spy satellites pointed right now? Whether you believe they have evidence or not, it is strikingly stupid to insist that they couldn’t or don’t have evidence. No one except some senators have seen pictures of Bin Laden with his face all swiss-cheesed. It’s looking pretty likely that they got him since no peep of his existence has happened since that event.

The data may even point to a bomb planted on MH17

Except independent analysis of photographs of the wreckage say it was an anti-aircraft missile specifically designed to blast a cloud of shrapnel through the plane.

The problem we’re having here is that the kinds of sources that pass as acceptable for you and Jim_R do not pass various criteria that others here use in determining whether an article is trustworthy or not. Real journalism uses the actions and words of the people involved to give the reader an opportunity to make up their mind themselves. When an article is so heavily biassed in its formulation (‘batshit crazy’) it really casts doubt on the validity of the entire piece.

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A war between Russia and the United States, dude. Like, two nuclear superpowers fighting, right?

So, you’re admitting that the “rebels” are actually just Russians? Because I didn’t say anything about attacking Russia. Telling that you feel an attack on supposedly pro-Russian Ukrainians would be perceived by Russia as an attack on them. Also NATO is not the US. Is Russia gonna just start attacking everyone? I’d like to see that!

(although, I’d take a long, hard look at that conflict and what happened afterward, if I were you)

Yes, yes… Only people on your side of this have any knowledge of past geopolitical affairs. I had no idea that Libya is having a tough time post Gaddhafi… I thought it was all rainbows and golden pistols for all. Most Libyans (except those benefitting from Gaddhafi’s dictatorship) would agree that life now is better than life under Gaddhafi.

And “nobody did anything” means that Russia and the United States were never directly at war.

My point was that the cold war was entirely Russia and the US doing stuff to each other.

I have no idea why you’re bringing up the collapse of the USSR.

You said the cold was was a series of proxy conflicts that mostly didn’t screw Russia. I’d say the collapse of their empire was Russia getting screwed.

Perhaps you believe…

What is this, a soft straw man?

(although those kill civilians all the time too; it’s silly to believe otherwise)

Do they usually kill 300 at once? Nope. A professional soldier wouldn’t shoot on a commercial passenger jet because they’d be versed enough to identify their target first.

the typical American response

Because the world’s only English speakers are American, right?

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But… didn’t the Wikipedia link… state that… the ultimate responsibility for flight path… lies with the pilot?

In many countries, ATC provides services to all private, military, and commercial aircraft operating within its airspace. Depending on the type of flight and the class of airspace, ATC may issue instructions that pilots are required to obey, or advisories (known as flight information in some countries) that pilots may, at their discretion, disregard. Generally the pilot in command is the final authority for the safe operation of the aircraft and may, in an emergency, deviate from ATC instructions to the extent required to maintain safe operation of their aircraft.

However, this is just a generally. WHAT IF…

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So the pilot can just say “Let’s go buzz the Grand Canyon!” or “Watch me do a loop-the-loop!” and then do it?

Where are the audio tapes? And why was the SBU so eager to get them?

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Basically, yeah. The last thing you want to do when a duck flies into your engine at 600mph and your headed downward is to wait a couple of minutes for ATC to get back to you. If you decide to do a loop-the-loop, or fly to the Cayman Islands instead of Buffalo NY, well, your employer (and passengers’ attorneys) might have a few choice words for you.

And… how would ATC stop a pilot from doing what they want, except by having an Enforcer in the cockpit, or with a remote control?

 

I have idea about the audio tapes.

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Some responses in approximate order:

When did I ever purport to believe otherwise? Presumably, the pro-Russia separatists are either (self-identified) Russians living in the Ukraine or actual Russians who came over the border. Anyway, whom are you planning on bombing? The mobile militant forces? How well does that work? I’m going assume your comment about NATO is entirely bravado.

Give it time. Destabilizing an entire region only goes so far. Iraq didn’t get overrun by ISIL in a day.

The Cold War was mostly Russia and the US backing sympathetic factions in various other countries (when America or the USSR actually took part in the fighting, it didn’t go so well either). I’m sure that wasting resources on pointless proxy conflicts didn’t help either of them economically. However, going so far as to say that American intervention “won” the Cold War is pretty narrow-minded and ignores the lasting damage the two superpowers dealt to the development of numerous other nations.

You have literally no idea what you’re talking about:

Would you prefer “the typical Western response”? The “typical response”? I apologize if I assumed warmongering was entirely within the purview of the United States.

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A few hours ago the black boxes arrived at Farnborough airport in Hampshire, and are at a building just outside of that - where the U.K. headquarters of the Air Accident Investigation Branch (AAIB) are. Now the voice data recorder and flight data recorder are both going to be downloaded and analyzed. Within 24 hours they should have that info into the investigation stream.

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Dude… click the quote marks and copy the bit you’re responding to or your response just looks like random junk that is hard to grok.

When did I ever purport to believe otherwise?

Well, you’re quick to believe everything the Russians say, and the Russians are saying that the rebels are Ukrainians who disagree with hitching the country to the EU. I thought someone who is so across the situation would be aware of that.

whom are you planning on bombing? The mobile militant forces? How well does that work?

They are not as mobile as you seem to think. They have regions they control. See a missile launcher in rebel territory on a satellite image? Seems like a pretty sensible target to me.

I’m going assume your comment about NATO is entirely bravado.

Why? It worked in Libya, as I’ve already pointed out. Russia is playing power games to bolster their presence in the region, but I guarantee they will not go to war with NATO nations if we were to bomb the rebels. If they did it would disprove their claims, as I’ve also already pointed out.

Iraq didn’t get overrun by ISIL in a day.

Iraq isn’t overrun by ISIL and their ability to be as effective as they’ve been has everything to do with al Maliki’s failure at sharing political power.

However, going so far as to say that American intervention “won” the Cold War is pretty narrow-minded.

Actually, that’s how history sees it. It was a struggle for ideology and for the superpower’s survival. USSR is no more. America’s still here. Communism fell apart in Russia and has now been replaced by rampant capitalism. On both, the USSR lost.

You have literally no idea what you’re talking about:

I am aware of that incident and it’s a really long shot to compare the two incidents, not least of which being that happened 26 years ago when military hardware sucked compared to today. There were a variety of mitigating factors, the Americans took responsibility for the incident, apologised for the loss of innocent life and paid damaged to the families and the owner of the jet. Will the drunk gronk rebels or uncle Russia pay hundreds of millions of dollars to the victims if it turns out they did it? Really buddy, you’ve got no idea what you’re talking about.

Would you prefer “the typical Western response”?

Well, at least “typical western response” would actually be applicable. If we’re going to generalise though, I’ll start calling your position the “typical infowars tinfoil hat response”.

Do you care to be shown up any further?

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I am out of patience. You have shown a remarkable resilience in ignoring things I actually write, responding to some other person, and then pretending that person was me all along. I’m not Ygret, so take your theatrics somewhere else. I have no wish to continue discussion with someone so far up their own ass that they believe my protest against starting a war indicates that I believe Russia, the separatists or that I condone anything they have done.

That you fail to see the parallel between the American Navy downing the Iranian airliner (for which action medals were awarded) and the separatists shooting down Flight 17 is very unfortunate. 'Grats on reducing the situation to a question of weregeld, though.

Your facile analysis of the Cold War bespeaks a general ignorance of historical events, but it does not surprise me. If people had the self-awareness to learn from the past, then each generation would be less likely to confidently stroll into disaster, thinking “it will be different this time”.

In any case. Fortunately (or rather, unfortunately), the United States doesn’t give crap about the Ukraine, since it has no economic interest there, and the EU won’t even step up on the sanctions, so your call for war is about as effective as the typical prattle of an internet tough guy.

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Yes they can - they have 100% control of the aircraft. It might get them shot down, and certainly fired, but they can.

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First I have to apologise, because I had somehow made a mistake with who I was responding to.

I have no wish to continue discussion with someone so far up their own ass that they believe my protest against starting a war

Yes… I was in trolley Mode: Operation Irritate. We clearly disagree on the potential outcome of a bombing campaign. I don’t think Russia wants, or can afford to take on Europe over Ukraine while you think it would result in an all-out war. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Grats on reducing the situation to a question of weregeld, though.

I can see the similarities between the Iran Air shoot down and this incident, but I think my points regrading the differences in military technology of the times is valid. I do not think money is at all an acceptable reparation for the taking of a life, but it does represent something: taking responsibilities for your nation’s actions. If the rebels did mistakenly shoot down the plane, even if the rebels/Russia know what happened I think they’ll stonewall and confuse the issue as much as possible, as they (and other superpowers) have in the past.

I’ll agree my sentence-long summary of the cold war probably misses a few nuances :stuck_out_tongue: - It was obviously a huge waste of resources for both sides. I still take issue with your suggestion that it didn’t much involve the US or Russia since IMO the puppet-masters as the most involved in a performance. My summary was simplistic, but the Cold War was a battle of survival for two different ideologies. It was a game of oneupmanship in any area possible for the purpose of displaying the grandeur and potential for each’s separate ideology. Russia has obviously climbed its way back to the top of the capable superpower list, but the collapse of the USSR stalled their progress for at least a decade, maybe two.

EU won’t even step up on the sanctions

Short of bombing, that’s pretty much all they’ve got to work with.

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