The Kingpin’s background makes no mention of race or culture although most of the various multiverse versions end up being white. I’m also fairly sure that the Earth-616 Kingpin is contractually required to be white.
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[quote=“beschizza, post:1, topic:74109, full:true”]Tell me, o internet, how Mara came to hate, hate, hate, hate being on the wrong side of the conversation, but only after the movie became a career-blighting bomb.
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Because bullying is ok as long as you can claim racism?
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I think it’s entirely possible to see things in a historical context (i.e., a British guy imagining what American Indians would be like from pictures he saw in the Encyclopedia Britannica) without “burning it to the ground”. Peter Pan’s a classic, but judicious editing for modern audiences is a better solution.
Tell us more about the future of this fascinating, unchanging medium.
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Universal was able to make a live-action Peter Pan with a Native American cast as Tiger Lily, and it wasn’t an issue at all. I remember more of the reviews at the time commenting on the fact that Peter was being played by a boy rather than the traditional adult woman.
Disney, for their part, has been able to make fairly culturally-sensitive films about Native Americans, Inuits, African-American heroes, and Hindu traditions without using racial stereotypes.
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FTFY, Mara.
At least the Ancient Egyptians and Greeks aren’t around anymore. Although Copts consider themselves to be distinctly descendants of the original Egyptians, there is no genetic evidence that they substantially differ from the rest of the Muslim population in Egypt and it’s pretty unlikely considering the history of the region. So at least there isn’t a living culture that they’re exploiting. But yeah, no black people in Ancient Egypt?
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I haven’t seen Pan, but I have seen the previews…
Considering how Tiger Lily and the Indians in both the Disney film and the book were stereotypes at best, racist tropes at worst, maybe it’s a GOOD thing they went with a more generic “tribe”. From the pics I have seen, they are no longer Native Americans, but it looks to be a tribe inspired by various indigenous groups and, as @funruly pointed out, about 4 aisle of Hobby Lobby.
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Like the film itself – a prequel to Peter Pan – it’s an interesting experiment that didn’t work all that well. It turns out that people don’t really want to go see a movie about Peter Pan before he was Peter Pan, back when he was buddies with good ol’ James Hook. I picture Hollywood execs scribbling frantic memos: “Remember for the future: the thing people like about Peter Pan is the whole magic flying boy stuff and evil Hook.”
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Considering the context of Neverland, where it’s a mishmash of things, i think it could’ve been possible to alter the story and have this “indian tribe” not really be a tribe at all. Just some kids that were acting out roles within a primitive community (ie: Lord of the Flies type of thing but less dark), kind of like a kid playing astronaut or something else. In this case you could reasonably argue that the actors don’t necessarily need to be of a particular race. However i find the tribe concept in the story to begin with to be problematic, if you did use native americans it would be better but it’d be a really fine line to being disrespectful if not done thoughtfully.
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It kinda does, even by your own admission, that every (all I can think of) incarnation of Wilson Fisk (pre-MCD) is a big “fat” (though its deceptive as its actually mostly muscle) white guy.
The source material is graphic, so there are a thousand words describing him as white, no? Or are graphic novels just not as valid a source material as books, or is it “teh whiteness” that’s invalid?
I liked MCD and thought his voice was perfect for Fisk, but it wasn’t a traditional Kingpin when he was portrayed as being African American. Animated or IRL. Though it was also MCD who brought that incarnation of the animated Fisk he voiced to life when he played him full on - though MCD isn’t the first AA to voice Fisk for an animated series, Roscoe Browne was despite the character he voiced being white. With MCD live action they also changed his diamond to a ruby - so they took artistic license with a character, which is fine. It’s fine, er, sometimes?
Vincent D’Onofrio did a great job, as did that entire series until it was eclipsed by Jessica Jones - & speaking of, the biggest let down there was that Killgrave’s skin was always white. (Minor spoiler alert) they even had the perfect opportunity to turn it purple in story with what happened to him in the last two episodes. I, personally, was very put off by him not having a purple skin tone. Comparing MCD’s portrayal of Fisk being African American isnt even in the same ballpark to the fail on Killgrave being white. One is pure artistic license, the other an abominable fail.
I think MCD said it best, re: an AA as Fisk
I want them to get past that and just see the movie for what it is and see me for what I am—an actor.
…but Disney truly is the white devil when it comes to race relations with, well, everyone.
Doesn’t have to be. It might be fine. Maybe the movie will fully embrace cross-racial casting and give the role of Jesus to David Oyelowo while Tilda Swinton plays Pontius Pilate. Or maybe it’ll be the usual thing for movies set in the Middle East or North Africa, with a bunch of Northern Europeans in “swarthy” makeup.
I’m just saying, it was a little funny seeing that sidebar in the same article where she’s trying to bail herself out for taking this role.
Haven’t seen the movie but can’t imagine it’s half as interesting as this discussion. I agree primarily with SamWinston’s take - ‘neverland’ is a place of fantasy. IMHO what we’re objecting to is the lazy writing of fantasy.
If it were better written fantasy the movie’s deviations from reality would be clearly related to either a commentary on the time in which it was written or - no less interestingly - a commentary on what the kids imagine. ( Full disclosure, I liked Hook because I thought it did this sort of thing well. YMMV )
Whitewashing isn’t cool and white actors don’t really need to get cast in every damn thing but in this case we’re venturing into damned-if-you-do / damned-if-you-don’t territory. The Hobby Lobby / raver chic interpretation of ‘Indian’ would not have been made less awkward by anyone proudly pointing out that they made the role more authentic by casting a Native American.
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[quote=“beschizza, post:1, topic:74109”]which set fire to about $200m all told[/quote]I just gotta say, that’s one savory turn of phrase. Not sure why I can’t recall seeing it before. It almost feels like an upsell. “Remember, our movie didn’t have the biggest loss ever – we set fire to more money than anyone else ever!”
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I agree exactly. Casting an actual Native American person to play a dated, offensive stereotype doesn’t improve anything.
It’s like remaking 1942’s Holiday Inn and leaving the blackface scenes in, intact, instead of just not remaking the film because it’s a thin plot with song and dance routines that would seem utterly pathetic to remake rather than writing an script with some tinges of originality.
Also just think of all the children’s stories that just don’t go there at all. Quite a darn few.
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They really dropped the ball with Aladdin, though. “Don’t you know the penalty for stee-ling?” wtf, lol.
Yeah, I make no excuses for Aladdin or Mulan.
I do like that sentiment a lot, I really do, but for it to actually hold any water I think they would have had to go all out, and make it obvious that, in some way (even if subtle), all the characters were playing “dress up.”
I don’t think you can just cast one white actress as a Native American – the way films have done when casting major roles for minorities for decades – and explain it away that way.
I don’t recall the original book being offensively stereotyped (although it’s been a long time since I’ve read it, so I could be wrong). This is supposed to be an adaptation of the book, not of the Disney cartoon, right?
