Russia poisoned Skripal at home with nerve agent, say UK police

I do believe Russia interfered with the election, using sock puppets on social media etc. Like I said elsewhere, I don’t believe said interference affected the result, but I do believe the reports that such activities took place. Note, though, that attempts to influence elections in foreign countries are not always considered suspect. Indeed, the US itself has a bold history of such influencing. Being very outraged over Russian interference might thus (though I can’t say that’s true in your case) be a double standard.

As for the poisoning of Skripal, it should not surprise me if the Russian government was behind it, but as discussed elseẃhere there might also be various other Russian groups who might do such a thing without any orders from the government or Putin itself. Indeed, for all I know Putin might not be very happy about this. As such, I’d like to reserve my judgement until more information is available. I don’t see that position as very unreasonable.

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A u vas negrov linchuyut…

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??? Translation, please?

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Unless you think you have the expertise to evaluate the evidence yourself then whether or not you have seen it is totally irrelevant. I’m not going to get a sample of the poison to run through my own gas chromatograph. Whether I see it or not I’m going to have to make up my mind based on what other people tell me about it (or decide not to make up my mind, some people seem to like this better, for me I’d rather just believe what seems more likely and be ready to change that with new information).

Some people may have pushed back against the evidence for the Iraq war, but do you think that on the whole them presenting fake evidence increased or decreased public support? I think it increased it. I don’t think a small number of people trying to poke holes in it counteracted the flourish of Colon Powell waving that vial around at the UN meeting - even though no one in their right mind would think that vial contained anything other than a totally harmless substance.

If vigourous debate over evidence changed people’s minds then I don’t think Trump would be president. The idea that releasing evidence gives us a chance for informed debate rather than just giving a chance for rhetorical flourish seems far fetched.

Right now my belief is based on:

P(it happened | they say it happened) = P(they say it happened | it happened) * P (it happened) / P (they say it happened)

And my guesses as to the values of those things. I don’t think I’m going to ever have anything else to go on.

I also don’t see that position as unreasonable, and maybe this is the source of the disagreement. I prefer to go on believing whatever seems most likely while being ready to change my mind with new evidence. I think anyone can agree that both of those things are reasonable things to do as a general principle. So I am frustrated with all the, “how can you say that without evidence” stuff because I feel I have perfectly good reason to believe what I believe.

Penn Gillette said that hypocrisy doubles your chance of being half right. Influencing foreign elections is very bad when the US does it too.

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However, pointing out the US’ own track record exemplified by the TIME cover is a little bit more than whataboutery. Kudos if you can find a cover of a Russian magazine with Trump sporting a Russian flag and a headline like “Russkies to the Resskue”.

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Funny really. For those who are not black this can be seen as mere rhetorical device.

The question of just who is the “evil empire” might be just a tad more subjective than a lot of people think.

Putin on the Hitz.

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I wouldn’t call Zero Hedge a source of sanity.

As bad as USA has historically been, the Soviet Union really was worse.

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I can help.

He’s not dead because the nerve agent they chose to use against him did not kill him. That’s being flip, but that’s the situation. They could have gone “Mafia” and put 2 bullets in his head. They could have gone Israeli and injected him with something to simulate a heart attack. Instead they chose a method that did not guarantee 100% efficacy.

Ultimately, you’ll have to ask them. While you’re at it, ask them why they used Polonium against Alexander Litvinenko and Dioxon against Viktor Yushchenko. Perhaps, because a lingering, spectacular assassination due to an exotic poison is more effective at demonstrating their power? They’re not just killing their enemies; they’re issuing a warning to future traitors.

To demonstrate that a declared traitor is never safe, no matter how far they run, no matter how well they hide, no matter how long after the offense.


Corollary questions:

  • Who has invaded and maintained troops in Ukraine and Georgia against their will?

  • How is the weather in St. Petersberg?

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It’s very bad form to accuse people of being Russian sock puppets on the basis of their disagreeing with you in this case.

Regarding the weather, I can tell you that where I am it’s too cold. :confused: We really could use some spring soon. If you’re in California I assume you’re somewhat better off.

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It’s the consensus of what I’ve read and heard from experts in various subject areas who are following this, including Russians.

Several others here have addressed this. If you choose not to start an analysis of the poison’s provenance with Occam’s Razor that doesn’t mean that others won’t, and do so quite convincingly.

Not if they’re major players who want to hold onto power, they don’t. An autocrat and his cronies need enemies, which for this regime means publically posturing against the West even as one stashes one’s assets abroad for one’s retirement or family members. If those in the West had the guts, as Bill Browder and others have suggested, to actually freeze or strip the assets of Putin and his cronies then their smirks would disappear very quickly. Fortunately for them, they also know that the Tories and GOP and other Western establishment conservatives, for all their diplomatic rhetoric, wouldn’t put harsher and broader Magnitsky Acts into place because it would set a bad precedent in regard to their own tax-dodging and jet-setting plutocrat donors.

Of course the Soviet Union is gone. I would never claim that Putin is as heavy-handed in his authoritarianism as his old bosses – his approach is much more interesting, truly adapted for the information age. Calling everyone who questions Russia in 2018 a Cold Warrior or a McCarthyite is a lame and laughable tactic to the BB audience, and you’re better than that. Do yourself a favour and leave that one to the clowns at the I.R.A.

Power would be tenuous for anyone in charge because as you note the economy there is particularly unhealthy by G20 standards. That’s why he has to pull stunts like this. In order to hold onto power (something he obviously wants and uses) and also his money he has to appear to be a tough-guy macho nationalist who’ll do anything for Russia to retain the support he has: Russia’s counterpart to America’s Know-Nothing 30%. As anywhere else, keeping those rubes reasonably content and feeling superior to Others are all an authoritarian really needs to gain power (and, in countries without a liberal-democratic tradition, keep it), and Putin is very good at doing that.

So: quote Dugin’s vision; talk about “Russian greatness”; send totally-on-vacation troops into Ukraine; cry about the bad ol’ West trying to keep Russia down; wink and laugh when Russia “puts one over” on the Americans or Brits; do a little Jew-baiting or Islam-bashing or pandering to anti-intellectualism; throw a military parade; take off your shirt, etc. and they’re easy enough to gull.

He also understands that he needs to play a constant game of carrot-and-stick with the oligarchs and potential rivals to stay in power, something he also excels at. He differs from them in the respect that he likes the trappings of being a head of state at least as much as if not more than he likes enjoying spending his ill-gotten gains abroad, and regularly uses the coercive power of the state when he decides to giveth or taketh away and set examples. That’s where occasionally ordering that a prominent “traitor” be killed comes in (it also plays well with the nationalist rubes).

It’s just lazy to argue that I and others here only get my information from the American military-industrial complex and its shills in the MSM (of which I highly doubt The Atlantic – note the use of the preposition — is one). I have friends in Russia, have studied the country’s fascinating history and culture, and like you have been there. In the area of current affairs and politics I also follow Russians like Gessen, Kasparov, the women of Pussy Riot (to give examples familiar to the West) and Westerners who’ve lived in, studied and done business in Russia. Which brings up…

I also read The Exile before (at least in their telling) they got kicked out of Russia by the authorities – guess who’d taken charge by then. Taibbi and Ames always knew and still know what Putin is, but they’re just cynical and jaded about the corruption and authoritarianism there (and everywhere, but they’re both very clear that they think the Russian versions are on performance-enhancing drugs).

Those two made the mistake that some expat businessmen and some of the Russian-born smart young things do: they publically questioned and mocked the racketeers in power, and when one does that (or tries to challenge them by getting into the game) the authorities stop allowing you to party and live la vie Boheme.

Keep your head down and don’t get too ambitious and, from what Russians I know tell me, if you’re educated and make decent money and live in a big city you can disrespect the regime and all that it publically preaches and privately practises without consequence. Follow what is “understood” and you’ll be left alone. But when your penchant for chaotic merry-making brings you to a nut like Limonov who urges you to be more outspoken, though, follow his advice and say goodbye to your job or your business or your public reputation (which are the best-case outcomes).

If you’re depending on RT to formulate your alternate theories then you might want to consider that you’re the one being duped by a state propaganda organ, one that exists in large part to spread disinformation and FUD.

As for Peskov, I have no sympathy for anyone who gets bit after voluntarily jumping into a snakepit.

Nope. You pass a casual Turing Test, which is why I’ve never said you’re a bot (feel free to check my comment history). I’ve also stated here and elsewhere that you’re not one of the losers who posts comments for the trolley factories. And I’m sure that you know what a nation-state is, and thus don’t need to resort to feigned ignorance when you’re trying to pretend Russia is innocent of this. I’m not sure what your game or motivations are, but you’re more entertaining than them (even if the BB “refs” do keep a weather eye on your “subtle” kicks).

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I have no problem with any of these questions. They seem perfectly reasonable to me, especially considering that people are so ready to believe the story. I don’t see any harm in asking them even just as an intellectual exercise.

I have no problem believing that Russia was behind the poisoning but I see actual danger in not questioning the story that people are so ready to believe. I’m not an anti-government, conspiracy loon either but I AM a devotee of the altar of Carlin so I have to remind myself constantly that governments are made of people and are thus full of shit much of the time.

One of your questions stands out though. I’ve heard several people ask why Russia didn’t just execute him while they had the chance and I see it this way: Russia didn’t just let Skripal go. He was part of a prisoner exchange of proven (admitted by Russia) sleeper agents arrested in the US. Russia had him in a Siberian prison with no plans of letting him go, so the fact that they had to in order to get their own spies back probably pissed some people off. I don’t see this as a reason to doubt the story. I see it as more than enough reason to believe that they poisoned him out of spite, using a substance that implicates them, simply because they wanted to send a message. They already had him, yes. But he basically escaped his punishment through a pretty embarrasing situation and Putin is nothing if not a macho posturer that hates to be embarrassed.

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While the rest of his post was fine, that bit was unfair. Lots of people don’t know about statecraft and spycraft and such, just like some people don’t understand what a nation-state is. That’s why I’m always glad to help clear away their confusion.

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Yeah, there is some weird ambiguity with that case and this one. In both situations, it could have been intended as surefire ways of killing someone without leaving a trace, but screw-ups meant that instead they were big neon signs pointing only to Russia. The polonium was a particularly ostentatious way of killing someone, though - it represented a massive expenditure of resources as well as a significant portion of the world’s supply of polonium.
In some respects, both events were definitely warnings - Russia made it clear in the most recent case that this is what happens to traitors to Russia. The only question is if Russia cared about leaving such a clear trail of evidence that served as a warning to the UK, too - using weapons that could also act as weapons of mass destruction (enough polonium to make a dirty bomb, area-dispersible nerve agents) in urban UK could certainly be seen that way. The high number of Kremlin-unfriendly Russians dropping dead suspiciously of “natural causes” and “accidents” in the UK/US suggests that Russia does have undetectable ways of killing people, which suggests Russia does want to be discreet but also raises the question of why those means weren’t used in these more obvious cases.
So…

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Some good news!

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Sleeper Accounts? Cool!

“The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep…”

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The thing I’d like to see from the people oh so suspicious about the consensus explanation of what happened here is an alternate explanation that’s more plausible and less contrived and convoluted.

All the alternates I’ve seen people suggesting quite simply don’t pass the smell test. None of them make sense, with opaque motives and stupidly risky false-flag plans that would lead to massive blowback and people spending the rest of their lives in prison when – not if, but when – the truth would leak out.

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Angry ex-lover synthesizes nerve agent in basement?
Just some punk kids pulling a prank?
Squirrels?

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I’m inclined to believe that Putin might’ve wanted these people dead but I’ll say that his rhetoric especially when it comes to his complaints about the US pulling out of ABM indicates he prefers international treaties to keep things stable. So I wonder if there are other elements in play that are seeking to destabilize the foreign relations between Russia and other nations (friendly or otherwise). Because without regular diplomatic contact a simple incident could build up to a full blown war. I hate being all tinfoil on this but I have to ask “who benefits?” I don’t see how Putin benefits from a sloppy attack on someone that’s not active in spycraft anymore. Did this guy know more things than he led on? Why didn’t he pipe up when he was in the hands of the UK govt? Why attack him now if he was retired and being an old fart? I’ll just wait this out some more for more facts to come out.

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