No-one’s asking you to do that. What people are asking is that the rare incidents where some Nazi gets punched in public are not met with silly hand-wringing over a lack of “civility” and “pacifism” in society or discussions of free speech for discredited and inherently violent ideologies or ahistorical concerns that this is the start of Brownshirts vs. Rotfront 2.0.
24 Likes
This. ^^^
Applause for those who punch Nazis is not applause for anyone who punches anyone else. It’s not applause merely for the act of punching.
22 Likes
It’s weird how some folks don’t seem to get it that people who believe in the extermination of human beings are a detrimental threat to everyone, not just the people they actively target.
23 Likes
I imagine some decent Weimar-era Germans punched Nazis?
There were lots; each of the major political organisations in Weimar Germany ended up with a paramilitary wing to punch Nazis (and each other). The Social Democrats, for example, had the Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold. It clearly wasn’t sufficient to stop them.
I think the effectiveness of punching Nazis, and the morality of it are quite separate arguments, though. And physical action was quite an effective part of the opposition to the resurgent National Front in Britain in the 70s and 80s, so the effectiveness arguments probably cut both ways too.
4 Likes
8 Likes
Gracchus, i realize this is trying for you as a moderator, but consider this.
Every time an article like this comes out, you have the people who do not believe in words coming out to create a safe space for the whiny Nazi jerks, and every time they do that here they are rebuffed by reasonable pro-nazi-punchers.
Nobody in their right mind actually thinks you can debate with people who do not believe in words. The “debate” isn’t for those people. It is the verbal outgoing members of this community demonstrating for the youngins.
Children are watching, it is a large country and there are, every day, new children approaching reason. This is the internet trying to demonstrate for the kids what is and isn’t acceptable. The neonazis have a couple groups of billionaires funding them, and so things like prageru, we have…comment threads.
So it is annoying, and it takes up a lot of your time, but–and i sincerely mean this–good job. Keep up the good work
4 Likes
Hey wow they think you are a moderator @gracchus… What do you think of that?
17 Likes
Ask for a raise!
17 Likes
9 Likes
To be clear, I’m not a moderator, official or otherwise. I do share their goals of keeping this site free of a lot of the garbage we see on other sites.
I’m also already in agreement with what most of what you said in your comment, so consider it pre-considered!
Probably, like a lot of people, that I spend way too much time commenting here.
Based on my current salary, I’ll go for broke and ask for 100X what they’re paying me now. What do you say, @orenwolf?
22 Likes
Wiemer era Germans did punch Nazis.
Often.
They even imprisoned the Nazi leaders
5 Likes
I was religious in my youth. Being from a rural, protestant place, there was the constant drone of people demanding the return of teacher-led prayer to schools. I asked, as the cultural and religious makeup of their nation changes, and their children have Catholic, Hindu, or Islamic teachers, would they still support the right of teachers to promote religion?
Is it also so hard to see that perpetuating the legitimacy of brutality is equally beneficial to those who hate you? When the tide of public sentiment again changes, will you then go to their message boards and accept as right their brutalization of you?
The German people turned to Hitler because they felt that their lives were being ruled by empty promises with no action. Soon, there were brown-shirted folks punching and worse, and supporters smiled and winked and thought “good for them”. This wasn’t just talk, this was action towards the nation they believed they wanted.
Russia endeavored to rid itself of centuries of fear, brutality, and poverty, and cheered as the elements they disliked were discriminated against, violently repressed, and finally purged. By the time the purging was done, they lived in fear under brutal,Soviet rule. Skip ahead a century, and they gleefully embrace a new, brutal Tzar, because they believe it will bring about the society they long for.
Trump supporters giggle with glee as he calls for protesters at his rallies to be beaten. His supporters are tired of talk without action. Here on this thread people cheer on the beating of Nazis because they feel angry and threatened and are tired of empty words. Israel responds to thousands of years of violent repression by choosing to define itself as a Jewish state, thereby making minority religions the “other”. Round and round we go…
It’s okay to brutalize ______, because _____.
This is the great form letter of human history. You have blanks on it for the unpopular segment of society and the justification, but neither the overall intent, nor the results, ever change. Eventually people have to see that it is the parts of the form that are static that are evil. What you are really saying is:
It’s okay to brutalize.
No matter what you plug into the blanks, no matter how seemingly justified, or necessary, the end result is predictable, because we have lived it over, and over, and over. The tide turns and the same methods are used against a different set of people based on a different justification.
The world will not change until people stop weighing the justification of acts, and simply judge the acts themselves. How rare must it be that someone does something heinous without feeling justified? They do not have the final say, however; it is history that judges. The justification is fleetingly subjective, the literal act is eternally irrevocable, and we are damned by it.
It is a lot easier to shoot a dictator than it is to replace one with something better. -Gene Wolfe
1 Like
And because quite a few of them blamed the Jews for that. Much like many of Trumps supporters blame brown and black people, feminists, and liberals.
But those pesky details…
History is written by people, dude. People like me.
16 Likes
Round and round we go…
1 Like
I do really enjoy that punch-a-Nazi meme – especially his switching gestures from “bring it on” to “calm down Bro” – but I don’t think that’s quite right about the First Amendment. As I understand it, an American has the right to express opinions without being subjected to State violence. Ordinary citizen response is another thing. Some people seem to think that the State should actually protect white supremacist speech but the ACLU has decided against that.
However, I do want to point out that the Third Reich encouraged Nazi youth to brawl with opponents in the streets, fomenting chaos & violence that led to a coup. We are well on the way to that.
Maybe folks who want to punch a Nazi could sign on to protect synagogues & mosques during holy days or to provide safety escorts for people who need them? I’d like to see antifa become a symbol of safety & solidarity for the most vulnerable.
Edited to correctly attribute quote & to add, again, I’m all for punching Nazis; but hand-to-hand combat doesn’t seem like a viable long-term strategy. The right wing is planning more rallies, one very near me. Seems to me they are deliberately provoking violence/martial law/right wing coup/civil war. Is there any other path?
History doesn’t write itself, man. It’s an ongoing debate and conversation (a dialectical, if you will) based on what we can uncover about the past. It’s not always self-evident and obvious what happened in the past and what it means.
We DO known that nazis enjoy rounding people up and killing them. In very large numbers. That is the reason for existing, that’s what they do. They have been judged by their acts. As have white supremacists, who very much often enjoy killing people of color for doing such mundane things as owning a grocery store and entering a shop with one’s cousins.
We ARE judging people by their actions, which include supporting ideology which encourages and normalizes the murder of other human beings for no other reason than existing in the “wrong” place.
15 Likes
Well, that and actually getting into the majority in the Reichstag, too. That helped.
I believe that’s already happening, actually. Also, the DSA regularly does things such as set up checks for brake lights, so that the cops can pull over POC for bullshit reasons and then shoot them.
12 Likes
I just don’t understand this odd perception that there are Nazis, white supremacists and white nationalists who are pacifists and that therefore people (especially members of groups they hate) don’t need to automatically take a stance of self-defense against them when they wear their symbols or spout their ideology in public.
12 Likes
You are correct that the 1A only covers speech not being infringed upon or punished by the government. Private and public entities are another matter;
For example, we’re not allowed to shout ‘fire’ in crowded, enclosed spaces, and we’re not allowed to use sexual language and humor in the workplace, because that kind of ‘speech’ puts people at risk needlessly.
It’s willful denial, a privilege that only people who are not under immediate threat from such hate groups have.
It’s incredibly naive to believe that if White Supremacists ever achieve their goals of eradicating all “undesirables” they won’t next set their sights on everyone else who’s left.
That’s the whole point of the Martin Niemöller quote; evil is never ‘appeased’ - it has a voracious appetite and is all consuming, like a Cancer or a black hole.
14 Likes
And in so doing you are supporting brutality as a legitimate means of imposing the social will and squelching ideas different from your own. Will you nod in agreement the next time Trump calls for a protester to be beaten? I don’t believe so, not at all. Then you will say something different.
So, sure, you will write history. There’s a long line of other people in history who felt the same. The history you would write would judge them harshly, while saying it’s okay now, in these very narrow circumstances. I am betting that was sort of like the history they wrote, too.
1 Like
