I get your point, but assuming that culture has nothing to do with the real world and how it functions is ignoring how culture shapes the real world. How women are perceived in our culture might not matter to you, but I assure you it does matter to those of us who are women–it might not seem that way to you, but attitudes formed in and by the elites shapes how society as a whole views women as individuals, meaning it can affect the day to day realities of our lives. If a boss say, thinks that women are the sum of their sexuality and that is shaped by mass media depictions of women, then it will indeed have an impact on the people he hires and works with. See what I’m saying?
But of course, the fact that we have the time (well, maybe not…) to sit around debating this stuff on the internet does betray a level of privilege to do so.
AS I said before, pressure from people like you to be politically correct is no different than any other outside pressure. We simply don’t need it. It is not any more welcomed than any other types of pressure put on to women.
The only reason why you don’t think it’s slut shaming is because there’s virtually no sex work right activists in USA- you guys are terrible with sex workers. Put them in jail, or only treat them as victims. Here in Australia, we have the most progressive laws in decriminalising sex work in Sydney and legal in most states. My friend is a CEO of the national representative body of Sex Work (peer only and funded by government - something far far from reality in minds of people in USA) . Using the word prostitute in derogatory matter is definitely slut shaming and whorephobic. My friend is of the same opinion and many other activists that I know in Australia. I am not saying to condone ANY industry- I am saying you don’t also have to make people look a certain way or act the way you want or what you feel comfortable with so to be against the industry. Ultimately, what people decide to do , is theres to do . I am sorry you can’t respect other women’s choices and believe that it ISN’t their choice because you hate their decisions and or because they are lower class then you, that they are incapable of making up their own minds and have no autonomy so that their opinions must be dissected and looked upon patronisingly- it’s really the last thing they need from you. AS I said, to do something else because they make a choice based on pleasing people like you is still the SAME THING as church telling them they can’t wear short skirts or masterbate- it’s still just all about control of women.
Sinead did not make these comments because she is “working class.” She made these comments because she is still stuck in era of generation of feminism that restricted women and claims any penetrative sex is violence against women and that any women that enjoy sex HAS NOT MADE A CHOICE because of outside influence. This , they call “false consciousness”. I do NOT support this view at ANY level. I also do not believe in this happy neo liberal empowered choice thing. I think people make the choices they make out of few choices and options they have. And we need to respect that - not make them feel shit or patronize them.
and I agree with Halloween_jack. I can’t understand what was such a big deal in the first place.I think Miley wins this one - she really WOULD have not had ANY attention from the public otherwise.
this is exactly the kind of argument that says asian women , from poor countries- do not get to have sex with who ever they want because they are lower class. All it does is take MORE rights, choices, and autonomy from people that you claim to support. As an Asian women, I see it only as classist and yet another patronizing opinion trying to control our sexuality and to point out how much privilege you possess in comparison to the “poor” others who can not make their own choices.
I’m sorry… You clearly are not understanding my position. I do not want to “slut-shame” Cyrus, but that doesn’t mean I have to celebrate or even support her choices, or even think that she is making them completely on her own. I do think she is most likely being, if not manipulated or led, at the very least given bad advice that plays on her youthful instincts for fun and excitement. Or maybe she is calculating enough to make these decisions on her own. I do not think in the long run that that is how you build a successful career in music. If this is all about short term attention to boost sales, then maybe…
I do not think that all choices are equal. And for the record, I do not necessarily think sex work is a bad thing. But saying that it is a choice, even a limited one, ignores the very real fact that millions of women were not give a choice, or their choices were so very limited that it didn’t even matter. If someone chooses to go into sex work, that’s fine with me and I do not think it is necessarily a bad choice. But what about the women who don’t? You seem to be ignoring them. I do not think we should shame them for what they have had to do, but if they are being forced, why shouldn’t we pay attention to that. Australia may be some sort of progressive utopia on women’s issues, but most of the rest of the world is not.
Sorry if you feel patronized, because that’s not what I meant. My point was that poorer women and women of color tend to have a smaller horizon of choices than rich, white, elite women. Miley Cyrus and Amanda Palmer had a much wider horizon of choices because of where they were born, their skin color, and class status. I don’t really see where you got this notion that because of that poor women and women of color do not get to make choices about who they sleep with. Of course, that is a problem. I wouldn’t disagree. But my point was that different women have a different set of choices they can make. I don’t see how that is a privileged or patronizing opinion that is trying to force you into some little box where I am telling you that you can’t dress as you see fit or sleep with who you see fit.
Anyway… clearly I’ve touched a never and I’m sorry for that. I’m sure you won’t accept my apology since you’ve made your assement of me, that I am an overprivilged person who wishes to slut shame everyone who acts differently from me, but I’m sorry all the same.
Miley’s comment about Justin Bieber in her Rolling Stone article:
“He’s trying really hard,” she adds. “People don’t take him seriously, but he really can play the drums, he really can play guitar, he really can sing. I just don’t want to see him fuck that up, to where people think he’s Vanilla Ice. I tell him that. Like, ‘You don’t want to become a joke. When you go out, don’t start shit. Don’t come in shirtless.’ But the thing is,” she says with a laugh, “I think boys are, like, seven years behind. So in his head, he’s really, like, 12.”
She does not think it is okay for Bieber to be walking around shirtless, but it is okay for her to pose topless? She thinks he should work to make sure the world focuses on his talent, so how do her actions (naked music videos, singing about doing Ecstasy (and possibly cocaine), twerking at every moment) showcase her talents?
The problem is the industry. It deals in such deep psychological areas that it will never be a nice, open industry like coffee retail.
I knew an ex porn star, and she now campaigns heavily against all porn - her spectrum goes right from thin revealing shirts on TV through to hardcore this and that. She does it because when she entered the industry, by persuasion and misdirection, she was naive and hopeful. She came out a total mess, and cannot connect with her prior self.
Regulate it all you want, liberate it all you want, but it all ends up with people wanting to fuck people, likely in a frame of mind or manner that they’re not allowed to at home. Enticing youngsters into that, giving it legitimacy, is akin to throwing them a rope to hang themselves.
Cyrus isn’t “sexually liberated” (have a read up on how women actually felt during the 60s), she’s leveraging the media’s salacious appetite for sexual display. And by encouraging the entertainment industry that profit lies in that direction, she’s both inviting young women into the fray, and providing a rational, if in my eyes unfit, justification to have more of it - thereby shoring up the culture, and ultimately, ensuring that my young girls grow up in a sexualised media environment, and themselves have greater risk and pressure in their relationships and sexual encounters.
It isn’t about control of women. It’s about making sure people are safe and can develop freely without undue pressure from any quarter.
The sex media industry, from thin shirts to hardcore, demolishes those prospects - all so that investors get rich.
That doesn’t seem like a right-minded balance to me.
The problem is that these so called " anti-porn " campaigner speaks for ALL sex workers- completely ignoring the voices of many workers who likes to work in the industry. Your view demolishes prospects for women who does enjoy exhibitionism and hard core sex AND it also makes their jobs more dangerous by inviting false ideas about it - giving criminals the idea to abuse workers. In Australia where the stigma is less so due to progressive decriminalization, there are MUCH MUCH less violence against workers- first of all, there are less myth that sex workers get abused or is there to be abused AND the workers are protected by law like any other citizen. This is the right-minded balance.
In US, all you see are propaganda and crusade to stop sex work- while putting them in jail and patronizing them. There’s TONS of money in that. While in real life, sex workers around the world fight for their right , the right to have safe working conditions, and the right to not be criminalized. Youngsters are not “enticed” into that, lot of teen sex workers I have seen are actually run aways that are escaping abusive situations at home - often queer teens whose parents are religious and will not tolerate their sexuality. The last worry in their mind is if they should have to suck a stranger’s dick or not. - That is usually the LEAST of their worries. Often times, it is the police and condescending people who will only feel sorry for them when they have escaped a bad situation that are more of an issue. Like I said, in US- you only have criminalisation, stigma, and untruths about sex work. In Australia where it is decriminalised, peer based sex work organizations are respected and consulted when making policy and even for media for REAL collective decisions and experiences about sex work and what workers need- rather than over dramatised version that is sold for Non-Profit Orgs to make money off of the public. In Sydney, they have been effectively leader in STI prevention- research showing that they have less sti then the rest of the population when in decriminalized non-regulated environment. They are vocal, and inclusive of all sex workers .
The idea that women are nothing but sexual victims needs to stop. Casual sex for money should be accepted for both men and women - no one should be criminalized nor shamed for it.
Most of the anti-porn said (ex-performers) or (ex - sex workers) are born again Christian. I wouldn’t have anything to do with the lot. If you are looking for feminists in sex work in USA, you can see Annie Sprinkle, Nina Hartly or Scarlet Harlot. But they are all over shadowed by Christian attitude of USA. Annie called the latest anti-trafficking tactic the "worst war on sex workers " that she has seen over decades of her activism. I agree.
If my kids grow up believing that the best way to get forward in life is to focus on their sexuality and sexualness, I’ll have failed miserably in my duty to bring them up balanced, bright, and aware of lots of different opportunities and ways to enjoy life. It isn’t just what happens to them - it’s the state of mind they exist in.
Liberate all you want - I’m utterly pro-freedom - but educate and provide for the entire spectrum of views and beliefs. If my kids grow up and decide to profit, financially or otherwise, from their appearance / sexualness, I’m cool with that - so long as they understand what it is they’re doing, and don’t simply float in a shallow puddle of image egotism.
Why do you think so many ex sex workers are BACs? Easy prey. They’re busted up inside. Not simply an issue of pearl-clutching “look what I did to myself”, but of dealing with disgusting producers / pimps in the industry.
The best example I’ve seen was some BBC documentary on porn - the producer’s catchphrase was “we’re not happy till you’re not happy”. Not a good scene, not at all.
WTF- just because people have casual sex for money does NOT mean they are “busted up inside”. Nor do all sex workers or even MOST sex workers have producers or pimps. I am sorry that you are grossly uneducated and misinformed.
Hilarious that you think ALL sex workers become born again Christians… I haven’t heard THAT one before. LOL…yeah. No, I disagree. The people I know that are no longer sex workers work in diverse fields. Some become prof. at University after paying their way though phd, some become social workers working with teenagers working on the streets as that person has done before, writers, doctors- what ever. The only BAC I see are the ones making money off their life story by claiming they now see the “light”.
This whole controversy utterly fascinates me. I’m leaning more towards the Amanda Palmer side of the spectrum, in my personal feelings on Sinead’s original letter. But Miley’s response? Fuck that noise.
I’m not sure Sinead’s original letter was actually slut shaming, really, but what I have no doubt about is that it was extremely patronizing. I mean, I guess Miley opened herself up to that by saying that she was inspired by Sinead, so Sinead took that as an opening to go all “Well then, if you look up to me, let me tell you how badly you’re embarrassing yourself, and how you have no idea what you’re doing, you silly, dumb little girl” on her. Fair enough, I suppose.
And really? People in this thread are actually saying they don’t see the comparisons between this video and Nothing Compares To You? That is the very first thing I thought of when I started watching the video the first time. Sure, then everything went fucking crazy with the hammer licking and what have you, but I can certainly see where the inspiration for the “Singing earnestly into the camera” parts of the video came from.
