You do NOT get to decide for others, whether or not they truly want revolution. Period.
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I do not know Spanish sadly. However doing some manual transcription into Google translate, it sounds like that article is talking about a proposed curriculum to teach Catalan, not an approved one (can someone else back that up or refute it?) That also implies that prior to 1967 (until some time before Franco), there was not a curriculum to teach Catalan.
In either case, every source I can find still agrees that Catalan was in use prior to Franco, then banned from use in public under Franco. You tried to tie it to Franco’s regime and that is just flat out wrong.
ETA:
You know what? Fuck this, I’m out. I have not been given reasonable evidence that I am not talking to a troll, paid or otherwise.
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Other examples:
And also:
But if you do something illegal during a failed revolution, don’t be surprised if you end up in prison.
RE: Legality, Independence, Sovereignty, and right/wrong:
All the bickering is moot as the two main factors for these things are:
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Does most of the rest of the world recognize you as Sovereign?
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Are you able to protect that sovereignty though any method necessary including force?
At least one of those two questions needs to be a YES for you to have any hope at a chance of success.
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Seriously, no one is confused or surprised by that possibility, Barradeno. In fact, you seem to misunderstand the seriousness and severity of the problem Spain is facing (and the Spanish government is rapidly aggravating, at the moment). I refer you to the records of what nearly every government has had to say about their particular revolutionaries, each time this scenario unfolds; you’re treading that exact same road, my friend, and the sights along the way are not pretty.
You need to understand that those who want independence in just about any revolution are often quite willing to give up their lives for what they believe in, just as you may be. You hold no monopolies on conviction nor correctness, sorry, that’s NOT how it works.
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Of course. And a civil war is the “asking” of that question.
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I keep wondering when the silly humans will realize that rights shouldn’t have much to do with where on the globe one happened to pop out…
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That depends on the question you’re asking.
If the question is “would armed resistance be a tactically practical move?”, then sure.
OTOH, if the question is “was the violence employed by the Spanish state ethically justifiable?”, then a different set of facts come into play.
It’s also worth noting that recognition and sovereignty are separate (but related) issues. And that violence is not the only tool of political resistance.
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If you took these circumstances and applied them to the USA’s South, and imagined they did the same thing (“The South will rise again!”) then it’s tough to imagine a similar set of circumstances not happening in the USA, if not a significantly stronger response. While this doesn’t excuse state violence, it also does not give legitimacy to an illegal act that is, essentially, revolutionary and separatist in nature.
Folks (apparently from multiple perspectives on this issue) have acknowledged that one of the driving forces of Catalan independence is Catalans not liking the fact that that they subsidize poorer parts of Spain. Wow, can you imagine if Americans looked at things in these terms? The country would fall apart in a moment. I don’t think that would be a good thing.
As someone else said (new poster, may be a paid trolley, but I doubt it), how about we look at reality, which is that we now live in a global civilization, and splitting things into somewhat arbitrary lines based on race and culture and religion etc. isn’t really helping the planet any more. Globalization doesn’t have to be a bad thing, it just happens to be skewed toward the interests of the ultra-elite at the current moment. It doesn’t have to be this way.
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Not really asking a question - nor even suggesting violence. It was just a general reply to others throwing around words about legality and right to this or that and what is right or wrong. My comments aren’t just, nor suggest what is going on is “OK”, but they reflect reality.
The ethics of a state applying violence usually has no affect on them losing power assuming they keep control. The whole world can clear their throats, make harrumph noises, and tap papers on desks to make them neater while condemning their actions - and still do nothing. (Hitler could have retired in his 3rd Reich if he hadn’t invaded anyone.) History shows that most of the time the world sits back and allows it, even if they condemn it.
I agree.
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I read Cory’s post as, “Spanish government seeks to prevent Catalan Independence, then does the things that virtually assure it”. It’s more Colbert than South Park that way.
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You think a few cops shooting rubber bullets at voters (which I think is abhorrent) is going to lead to Catalonia’s independence? Hahahah. No, it will lead to a civil war, more likely. Catalonia has zero legal basis for unilaterally declaring independence from Spain from what I understand, and something tells me Spain won’t let one of their more prosperous regions just take a hike…
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Catalonia has representatives in the two houses of the Spanish parliament that are free to propose any constitutional amendment that they want. Otherwise, can we all agree that Franco died more than 40 years ago? I do not agree with every move of the Spanish government, but in general is doing what is supposed to be doing, according to the laws. The police were actually enforcing court orders, not government orders.
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Actually, that was just the appetizer. Dissolving a duly elected regional government, suborning the free press, and placing puppets in charge of the region is what I’m referring to. And I agree that it it’s unfortunately heading towards civil war. Now keep going past your ellipses. What happens next? Does the EU or NATO stand by while Catalonia burns? Unlikely. Progression towards violent conflict is unlikely to end in a unified Spain. The other semi-autonomous regions can read the writing on the wall; if Catalonia is crushed, they will be next.
Those who are truly interested in Spanish unity would be at the negotiating table, not declaring martial law. Remember when there were French-Canadian independence “terrorists?” How did Canada solve it? There were two independence votes, both were rejected by a (somewhat close) majority, and the central government sat down with the Quebec independence leadership and hammered out a deal. Sure, people in 99% English-speaking areas of British Columbia have French on their road signs, but it worked out. Why can’t the same thing happen in Spain?
If it looks like a fascist and it sounds like a fascist, and it smells like a fascist…
Escalation is the problem here. How painful would it be for Madrid to TALK? It’s in no Spaniard’s interest for this to progress to armed conflict. Right?
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Madrid is taking, There have been debates in the Spanish parliament in which the situation has been discussed. In democratic countries, parliaments are the forum in which to discuss this kind of things. In the other hand, the separatists have closed their own Catalan parliament.
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So you’re saying Catalonia’s grievances are unfounded? I’m dubious. 
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It would be nice to know what the grievances are. As far as I know, it is about semantics –they would like to be called a nation– and about the rich not paying more in taxes than the poor. They have more self-government today that they had ever had. The suspended –by the own separatists– declaration can be found here: http://www.ara.cat/2017/10/10/Declaracio_Independencia_amb_logo_-1.pdf
If it looks like a fascist and it sounds like a fascist, and it smells like a fascist…
Did you consider the United Kingdom to be fascist when they suspended Northern Ireland’s self rule and sent the Army to patrol the streets? Did you consider the United States to be fascist when they sent the Army to protect the Little Rock Nine and enforce federal law, despite local opposition?
No, it was not in reply to you. The tag is quite plain.
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