Wait, I missed the part of the story where Catalonians in favor of independence were fire-bombing their neighbors, as well as the part where they were hanging people for the color of their skin! That makes your comparisons accurate. /s
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Like others here… I don’t doubt there is blame, poor leadership and bad decisions on both sides… however, the National response has been disgraceful and deliberately provocative (for many reasons). A referendum, even one that is unsanctioned, is practically the gold standard of principled non-violent political speech. The proper official response should be to ignore it. The use of force against peaceful political action is indefensible.
This escalation is viewed in the same light (and I am a Spaniard that wishes Catalunya to remain in Spain).
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Also, the deliberate Nationalist escalation is deliberate and a smart calculated (if abhorent) political move. The crackdown on Catalunya is very popular nationally in Spain. The ruling party, PP, did horribly in the last elections; and expect a boost from this scorched earth approach. The main opposition party, sensing this as well, has decided to go right along with the oppressive program; to try to keep its popularity from becoming an issue that can be used against them.
On top of this, regardless of how brutal things may get; as fragile as it is, the EU is very much not interest in being critical of anything Madrid does or giving separatists any indication of support.
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Probably true, until it’s bad for business.
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Uh…I don’t know near enough about this situation to comment, at all, really in regards to Spain…but your statement has some pretty serious problems when applied to the rest of the world.
I mean, we could easily interpret your statement to be pro-Confederate, as far as the American Civil War goes.
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The Confederacy had every right to secede (presuming a majority of its people agreed), but the Union had every right to invade to put slavery to an end.
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Yup.
OTOH, it’s worth noting that the majority of the people in the Confederacy did not agree.
Nobody asked the slaves’ views on the matter. Or the poor. Or the women. Or the Native Americans.
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Just FTR, I thought you were addressing Baradeno as well. And interestingly, I agree with some, of not a lot of what they wrote.
Shall I go elsewhere also?
Will people on the BBS assume I am a trolley if I disagree with the verbal framing of the noble Catalonian struggle for independence?
I am quite unhappy about @doctorow’s wording, and the general tone of this discussion, since I don’t agree with both parties: the separatists and the central government. Fuck them both.
As for opinion leaders: Cory is, obviously. And contradicting him in a thread underneath his article is quite ok, I hope. It is part of what bb is about.
And reaction gifs, of course.
ETA: no offense meant. =)
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Not a good example, I fear.
The NI self rule was suspended, not because they wanted independence, but because the Prots were dominating the Catholics. The side that wanted independence (Sinn Fein) have emerged as being on the right side of history. The side that wanted to be part of the UK continue to be the problem, riddled with corruption.
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All examples from other countries are bad examples I realised in this thread. My main grievance in everything @Barradeno said is that all the comparisons they draw are from different legal systems, different circumstances, and at least the US secession from a completely different period of history without taking this into account.
That said, a historically and legally informed comparison with other secessionist movements would be interesting (in a different thread, I think).
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I agree with almost everything you say.
Almost, because at some point all secessionist movements are going to leave the existing legal system. “You signed this agreement in the year X” is a lawyer’s argument, but not an historical one. (There are other factors such as credit ratings, trade agreements, currency and so on, but it takes a lawyer to regard laws as immutable when they change or are re-interpreted every day.)
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suppose some white nationalist people decide that they want self-determination…
suppose that their self determination requires that they persecute the various persons of color standing in their way…
Sometimes people is just the plural of person. sometimes it transcends the individual.
When Spain emerged from fascism, the other political parties wanted to make the Communist Party illegal - which is not the case even in the US.
It was the King who insisted that this did not happen.
Authoritarianism still seems to be deeply embedded in Spain. Me, I blame the Habsburgs.
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Exactly, thank you for that post.
Unfortunately, this is the Internet where this kind of balanced opinion has no real place. Herd mentality at work. The only narrative that has some resonance is « There was a vote, it was a vast majority, the people are oppressed by central government ». Interestingly, some of the same people were saying exactly the opposite about the UK not so long ago: « There was a vote, but the people did not get a real chance to choose and are protesting in the streets, so let us not make the UK independent of the EU ».
So, thank you again for pointing out that the situation is a bit more complex than it seems, which it obviously is. We need more people like you.
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You are buying into the myth of Catalan language repression. While one could not use it for legal purposes and was not taught formally at public schools (just like regional languages in France, say), it was widely used. Even then, Catalan started being taught at schools in 1967 (http://hemeroteca.lavanguardia.com/preview/1967/09/12/pagina-20/34356141/pdf.html)
In 1963, a song in Catalan won the “Festival del Mediterráneo”, Spain’s main song festival of the time, which obviously proves the fact that it could be used in public. This is not information from an article I pulled from the net, you can see and hear the song at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAtSBEAXi4Y
I am also linking to a list of literary prices for Catalan language since the late 40s, which makes it evident that there’s way too much victimism going on. https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2014/03/cuando-franco-premiaba-libros-en-catalan/
The photo is from a visit to Barcelona by Franco. The banner says “Viva Cataluña” (in Spanish) as well as “Visca Espanya” (in Catalan)
which again, helps dispel the myth
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I agree, but as far as the political and legal comments I read in the German press go, the Catalan government didn’t even try to push for independence within the legal options of the Spanish constitution, but choose a way of confrontation. Which, sadly, the Rajoy government took up instead of negotiate.
It’s a loose-loose situation at the moment.
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To all Spanish unionists commenting from here and onwards; yes, we know that the Catalan independence movement is acting in discord with the Spanish constitution. That is very well understood, thank you, so there is no need repeat that in every comment.
You would convince me a lot more if you could focus on the benefits of remaining united, and what you are looking to do to improve the toxic relations in a future united Spain.
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and, as far as i can tell, to add insult to actual injury: the central government is itself acting illegally.
they complain about the illegality of the referendum: but they deny the rights of people to free association and assembly, they drag people down stairs by their hair, they close down media outlets, and they vacate the government.
it’s one thing to say a vote will not be recognized, it’s quite another to use force to stop it. there’s nothing legal ( or even humane ) in that.
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The article is highly misleading, as with all BoingBoing articles on the issue.
How could an “orgy of violence” result in only one hospitalised person (with a rubber bullet to his eye)? (I’m counting out a heart attack)
And the “Franco 2.0” is a highly disrespectful subtitle for a country that rates highly in democracy indexes (such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index, where Spain is rated above Italy, France and the USA). A country so open and democratic that has provided regions with a degree of autonomy hardly available anywhere in the world; a degree of autonomy that regions in Italy or France can only dream of. With such judicial independence that the king’s son in law has been tried and sentenced to more than 6 years imprisonment (currently pending appeal, which might even increase jail time).
That supporters of Catalan independentism include such populists as Nigel Farage, Nicolás Maduro and Geert Wilders, says a lot to me, coupled with Spain’s support from EU heavyweights such presidents of the Commission, Parliament and Council, Jean-Claude Juncker, Antonio Tajani and Donald Tusk. There is no international law base for self-determination (the right to self-determination is targeted at colonies, military occupation and such) as clearly stated in UN declaration 2625 (“Nothing in the foregoing paragraphs shall be construed as authorizing or encouraging any action which would dismember or impair, totally or in part, the territorial integrity or political unity”) (http://www.un-documents.net/a25r2625.htm). Ban Ki Moon also made it clear that Catalonia call for independence is illegitimate https://www.rt.com/news/320294-catalonia-independence-ban-un/)
The Spanish government, with the support of two of the 4 major parties, for a total of the 3 of of 4 major parties, is simply abiding by the Constitution and the Constitutional Court (which has frequently ruled against governments wishes). Even though Constitutions do not allow for it (except for Ehtiopia. and Saint Kitts and Nevis), one could argue that the “will of the people” should prevail over the “rule of law” (and assuming it’s a good thing that a country can always be held at ransom by a region). But, even assuming there was no Brexit-style manipulation from local TV channels and school system, latest local government opinión polls showed only 41% of support for independence. And only 48% of votes went to independentist parties in the latest autonomic elections. So in no way it is a Catalonia vs. Spain issue, but an issue of a minority of Catalans vs. the rest of Catalans. In fact, a graph of historical support for independence in autonomic government opinion polls shows that support for independence (blue) was falling, and the independentists are fleeing forward with a “now or never” approach that seems hard to justify.
I would encourage a fact-based debate here, with links to solid references.
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