Why are you mobbing up against Terry Gilliam? Do you hate freeze peach and good art? /s
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If this, just talking about it, is all #metoo has achieved (and it has achieved much more) I would still count it a success and useful endeavor. So many people didn’t realize how prevalent sexual assault is. For so many people, too many people, it has been a huge revelation.
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And that’s making some people upset, apparently, hence the “mob” narrative, dismissive attitudes to sexual exploitation of hollywood, and other silencing tactics being employed to shut it down.
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I know; and I respect your sensitivity to that. I swear I didn’t come here to accuse women of hysteria. But right now it seems all it takes is an accusation to write someone off as guilty. And look what happens to me when I suggest it might be a little unreasonable.
Yeah yeah, we get it, men are the real victims here. 
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Which has no force of law behind it. Public opinion is not a court of law. Given how prevalent and widespread various forms of sexual harassment and the long history of women not being believed in general, you can understand how frustrated people are and how much they wish to push for change. Gilliam is just doing the same old thing of excusing the behavior because it’s ubiquitous and describing the (mostly) women who are at the forefront of this movement in belittling and dismissive terms. Perhaps you can understand why that’s so frustrating, given that it’s what women have had to face for much of history.
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This is demonstrably untrue.
Someone tried to frame up Chuck Schumer a few months ago, but it didn’t go anywhere. Someone tried to do a “sting” operation but putting a false complaint among the real complaints against Roy Moore, it was sniffed out immediately. Check out the story of Steve Paiken in Canadian news - he was accused and the general reaction from everyone seems to be, “Uh, Steve Paiken? Really?” His employer, a public broadcasting company, launched an investigation but he’s still hosting their flagship news program.
And elsewhere you’ve still got millions of women being abused by everyone from their grocery store night shift managers to their friend’s husbands and none of them are getting justice.
There is lots of evidence that: 1) False accusations don’t stick; 2) Most victims of sexual harassment and abuse still don’t come forward.
Get some sense of the scope of the problem. Reasonable estimates say 1 in 6 women are victims of rape or attempted rape, far more are sexually abused or harassed in other ways. How many men have done a stint in prison over a false accusation of rape? One in six? Probably more like one in a million (if even that).
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Oh, the absolute horror; people are disagreeing with you, and using sarcasm!
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The problem is too many people here and all over the country are lumping too much into one bucket. You keep making the assumption that the “mob mentality” comment has to do with the fight against sexual exploitation, and it doesn’t. We’re all in agreement that this system should be dismantled- I’ve held this opinion for decades. Hollywood’s sleazy “norm” has never sat well with me- I’m glad it’s finally being exposed and that women are coming forth and that perpetrators are being shown up.
None of that has anything to do with “mob mentality.” Mob mentality describes the anger-fueled persecution not just of perpetrators, but of anyone who happens to have an opinion that differs slightly from the accepted narrative. Terry Gilliam never raped or assaulted or harassed anyone. He just happens to believe, rightly or wrongly (or both) that a corrupt system is a separate issue from individual choice. Gilliam is expressing an idea; he is not committing a crime. All these pseudo-righteous reactions of “I’m never going to watch his movies again” and “fuck him” simply because the guy happens to hold an idea we don’t like is precisely the definition of “mob mentality”. It’s not a literal mob, it’s a mentality that resembles the mentality a mob operates under- hence the phrase “mob mentality.”
To put it another way in a little thought experiment: if your dad made a similar comment about this issue (and many of our dads have much more inflammatory comments about this issue) would your reaction be “fuck you, dad” or “I can no longer be your child, get away from me you disgusting patriarchal asshole…” etc.? Would you feel the need to “punish” your dad for his ideas? Because I don’t. My dad says shit like this (actually, much more ignorant shit than anything Gilliam is saying) and yes, sometimes it frustrates me because I’m related to him so it becomes personal… and yet, we can still sit down and have dinner together and whatever. I don’t get so high-and-mighty that I feel like sharing a meal with him would be a betrayal of my values, or any such ridiculousness. Boycotting Gilliam’s films (even on a personal level) is the metaphorical equivalent to burning witches at the stake or whathaveyou- not the literal equivalent, obviously, which is why we have metaphors in the English language, but the metaphorical equivalent- hence the phrase “mob mentality”. It fits.
I’m all for fighting the system AND having open discussions without feeling the need to shut anyone down. Given that Terry Gilliam has given this world several of the greatest cinematic works of art in the last 40 years, him happening to have one opinion that I may or may not partially or totally agree with is not- and should not- be a stumbling block in my mind. Even if he was merely an okay filmmaker, or a one-hit-wonder, or whatever you want to call him, I still would and should be okay with his opinion even if it differs from mine. I know the “mob” that is the current political climate would like me to get angry and denounce everyone who doesn’t fall in line… but guess what- I can be okay with different opinions and still fight like hell to make this world a better and more equitable place for everyone involved.
I’m actually really sad. Obviously I set myself up for this by thinking I liked a person because I liked that person’s art, but that’s a hard trap to avoid.
There are some other directors and actors that I’ve pretty much steeled myself in preparation for. I’m not emotionally attached to (for example) Tarantino.
But there are some people who are hard to take down off the pedestal. It sure hurt to read Angela Fletcher Lansbury’s comments about #MeToo. Gilliam is basically a childhood hero.
Never meet your idols, right?
This is bullshit.
I’m not planning to avoid Gilliam’s next movie because I feel good about my self-righteous anger. He’s one of my childhood heroes, his comments hurt me, and none of this is enjoyable or fun or feel-good for me.
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It is a spectrum, not either or. It’s all unacceptable, frankly and should be understood as such.
How is anyone being persecuted here - some people have said they won’t watch his movies… that’s not persecution, that’s people making a choice. Gilliam has the right to say what he wants, and we have the right to make choices based on his statements. That’s not persecution at all. And of course, he has a much larger stage from which to announce his views than any of us. Free speech isn’t freedom for consequences of that speech.
Well, given that he’s been dead since 2013, that seems highly unlikey. But if my mythical zombie dad came back and said such a thing, I would certainly let him know how I feel about his opinion. But you know, Gilliam isn’t my dad, I don’t know him personally, and whatever I think of him matters very little to him, I’m sure.
None of these guys have been shut down. We’re disagreeing with him.
And BTW, Gilliam sounds like something of a bully at least to some women, so there’s that:
I’m sorry about that. I like his work, too. But those of us expressing our displeasure or disappointment is being equated to being a mob, which is what I was attempting to highlight. I’m sorry if I made you sadder about it.
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Not at all. Like I said, I set myself up for being sad by equating art I like with an artist.
Like I said further down in my post, the idea that this is a self-righteous mob is just stupid. People who dislike sexual harassment aren’t sitting around sharpening their pitch-forks gleefully waiting for a chance to use them.
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Right on with this point. I think that really says it all, doesn’t it?
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Thank you for taking the time to write this. Your point about false accusations is well-taken. Frankly, I can’t rebut that at the moment, so, point made. I will concede that.
Have you read the piece by Ms. Roiphe in Harper’s that I linked to earlier? (It was removed). I found her essay compelling, and am curious how others react.
https://harpers.org/archive/2018/03/the-other-whisper-network-2/
Have a great day!
The truth can be very ugly indeed. And people shout the loudest when they feel guilty. Whether of actual acts of sexual assault and harassment or of complicity. Some will calm down. Some will listen. And we, as a society, will leave the others behind eventually.
Or so I can hope
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I think we can move this conversation beyond the semantics of the term “mob mentality” at this point. IMHO That’s not what any of this is about.
The acts committed by Harvey were atrocious long before a movement sprung up around it, and regardless of your opinion of that movement, that’s a fundamentally different subject.
Thanks.
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Roiphe accuses other people of losing all sense of proportion because Roiphe doesn’t think others are differentiating between rape and leering. But Roiphe only thinks this because they have absolutely no sense of proportion themself. The piece doesn’t differentiate between: 1) sometimes having to reap a fraction of the emotional pain you have sown into the world; and 2) living in a police state.
It’s also a lot about people’s tones. Like it’s galling that people who are talking about a culture that has persistently allowed women to be sexually assaulted and harassed dating back as long as anyone can remember are angry about that. Well, not that they are angry, but it’s how angry they are. Shouldn’t they tone it down a little?
When Gilliam says some stupid crap there is a blowback. That is, Gilliam may have endure hearing about how words can hurt other people’s feelings. No one is going to be imprisoned. Gilliams’ $50M net worth will be untouched.
People always try to invert power relationships in discussions like this. The worst case scenario for Gilliam here is a 5% lower box office turnout and a painful emotion.
If Roiphe really believed that the currently climate put people like them in danger, and that a campaign of whispers was necessary, what’s with the essay published for everyone to read in Harper’s? Weinstein abused people for decades and literally the first I heard of it was Seth MacFarlane making a joke about it in 2013. But the very instant the #MeToo movement started the calls that it was out of hand were being printed in pretty much every major media outlet. The people against it have an awful lot of platforms and a hugely loud voice for a self-styled group of oppressed underdogs.
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Since we’re reposting links that were collateral damage:
It’s always easy to find a member of any persecuted group who actively enables the persecutors; as slavery had its’ overseers, and the holocaust had its’ kapos, so misogyny has its’ ‘Cool Girls’.
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Thank you again. I will re-read the piece and look at this issue with your thoughtful perspective in mind. I value this insight immensely.
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