The American Left and Firearms

general topics
121

Umm, so you aren’t familiar with the Brady Campaign/Violence Policy Center, or Moms Demand Action or mayors against guns, Everytown for Gun Safety, or whatever other odd name Bloomberg funded groups have put together?

The gun lobby has less money than those anti-RKBA orgs, but the RKBA advocates have more people who will go to meetings, write letters, and make phone calls. So it depends on how you measure power.

In politics where the rule is generally that those with the most spend wins, the “gun lobby” is not the biggest spender.

And you may not be aware of the talking points, but the major advocates for gun control in the US legislature are all reading from the talking points put out by those orgs.

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Fair point. Thank you for bringing it up.

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But to be fair, the NRA spend encompasses a LOT more then just lobbying. Whereas those other entities are almost entirely lobbying.

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000000082

Per the above which seems impartial, the lobbying spend is 2-3MM by the NRA per year, but that probably is just the main org and may not include some of the sub entities, I don’t know.

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124

It is difficult to see, unless you are involved in shooting or hunting, you won’t see much of the NRA other than the “anti-gun-control/Pro-RKBA” side of the lobbying, as it is what gets all of the media attention.

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So how much of that “being seen” is by design? I’m serious. Is that how the NRA positions itself?

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It also seems that the 2-3 million dollar figure relates to how much they spend employing registered lobbyists, rather than how much they spend advocating against the regulation of firearms. I would expect the majority of their advocacy expenditure to go towards marketing and campaign donations.

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127

I would say it isn’t hidden. They trot it out as much as they can but it is generally ignored.

Education, Safety, Hunters Ed, all those things get pooh-poohed when mentioned as things that the NRA spends time, manpower and resources on. And it is like any niche sport or industry, if someone isn’t involved in it, you probably haven’t heard that much about it. They definitely make some effort to let people know, because the whole goal is to educate more people about responsible gun ownership. So I don’t think they are intentionally hiding that other spend. If you don’t go to a gun store or gun range or somehow contact the active gun community for information, I have no idea how you would learn about this stuff. It seems to mirror some other communities I’ve spent more time with, like open space advocacy, theatre and arts, if you aren’t involved you won’t know much about the goings on.

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128

You’re right, lobbyist spend is probably not the same as campaign contributions. But none of the graphs for the gun-control-orgs show the campaign contributions being made by PACs that are pushing a number of their agendas including gun control. I can’t say I 'm an expert, but the pro-gun camps will say that a Bloomberg funded PAC making large donations in a contested gun control seat are equal or greater than the NRAs, but measuring that stuff out becomes pretty hard.

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129

OK- Fair enough. And as you may guess I am against nanny laws - so feel free to ride with no helmet.

Except, like you said, the law is there to reduce risks to other motorists. I would say moving at way 20 mph on the high way faster than everyone else does pose a risk. The motorcycle is going to take the worst of it, but the motorist still has a damaged car with bits of flesh in the crannies. And plus there is the trauma of my kid watching you rear end the guy who just changed lanes into you because he didn’t see you and you were coming up on him 20 or 30 mph faster and couldn’t avoid it. Or another car was trying to avoid you or was startled by your sudden appearance and ends up hitting other cars.

So while I can see lane splitting being something done safely, not sure if different speed limits for either different vehicle types or skill levels would be a good idea.

That’s great you are so skilled. The problem with laws is they are for everyone, even the people who barely make it to work on one piece. Which I think you realize.

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130

You bring up good points. The NRA isn’t perfect, but it does a decent job at the one thing it is supposed to do - promote gun rights. There are a lot of smaller groups out there, and some of them are fine for more local things or to show a solidarity to a subset of gun owner (such as the Pink Pistols and the Jews for the 2nd Amendment), but orgs like Gun Owners of America don’t actually do much in the way of gun rights and are more of a scam, IMHO. Or allowing you to put two stickers on your truck.

It is important to note, most of the money from the NRA comes from PEOPLE. It truly is grass roots. The anti-gun group do get private donors, but not nearly in the same numbers and a lot of it seems to be propped up by small numbers of large donations, vs large numbers of small donations.

Because the issue is soooo split along liberal and conservative, it is seen as an arm of the GOP, but it really isn’t. They are consistent in their support of pro-gun politicians. So if you are a democrat who vote against say 3 gun law bills, you will get an A or B rating, and come election time they will mail a card to the member letting them know this. For example, they keep supporting the local sheriff even though he is a Democrat.

And as you pointed out, they have many more facets than just lobbying. For one they are the ONLY entity with a kids and gun safety program worth a damn and with any sort of recognition. I wish it was bigger. I would HOPE the anti-gun groups have similar programs - but I have never heard of or encountered it out there.

They have the largest certification network for trainers and training. When you see a class for you CCW or just to learn to shoot better, and the trainer is “certified” most likely it is from the NRA. I am sure there are other groups with training systems, but the NRA is by far the largest. (Again, this is why I don’t like GOA and others, as they do nothing in either training or safety, that I am aware of.)

And then there is the legal arm, the one that actually challenges laws in courts. Honestly, this one probably gets the most criticism from people even more hard-lined than the NRA. They have initially shied away from some of the bigger gun law challenges, such as the famous cases in Chicago and DC. I was told this was because they are afraid of losing, which would hurt the smaller, less important cases more. Best to not challenge it, vs lose and then in every case they bring up the opposition can site that case against them.

And finally, they have been making some really good media lately. Notably, Colion Noir’s show, which isn’t prefect, but he defiantly is attempting to break stereotypes and shows more about the fun of shooting, vs focusing on defense or tactical only.

Though the parts about the NRA I don’t like is mainly PR related. They need more of a liberal outreach program. Their alarmist propaganda for donation gets old quick. They need to get rid of some of their more toxic people like Nugent, though the people on the BoD are actually voted in by the members, so the redneck vote needs representation, I guess.

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131

…and yet they write the gun policy for the GOP. How does that work if true?

I know it seems just like snark but, really, to progressives, it looks like if there is a gun question or issue for a GOP politician (or the party), they ask the NRA what to say. It looks pretty transparently that way for many millions of Americans and does not help the credibility of the NRA or the GOP about being an organization for everyone.

Yet it is what motivates their base to donate. “They’re coming for your guns” works every time.

As to the school outreach mentioned waaaay above, I recall it. I was a member of the “Junior NRA” or equivalent in my middle school in Utah circa 1983 or so. We had a school gun club that was NRA supported where we shot .22’s under one of the wings in an earth bermed shooting range at school. Only in Utah in the 1980s…

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132

This is my problem with the NRA too, and why I have suggested that they need a “rival” organisation (not necessarily left leaning). I am generally pro-gun ownership, but I find myself embarrassed to admit it because of how the NRA acts.

Of course I am British, and the NRA doesn’t have any direct effect on my countries laws. It is also worth remembering that this individual is responsible for most of the anti-gun laws here for the last 30 years.

I wouldn’t personally have a gun in my house, but that’s because I am a high suicide risk individual. I wouldn’t mind shooting at targets again, but my hands probably shake too much now.

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133

I’m not sure how this is a conflict or why it would cause confusion at all. They are subject matter experts on the issue. Even here in California state legislature most of the anti-gun legislation comes from 2-3 people who are not in the legislature or employed on their staff. And many of the cities passing anti-gun ordinances are using boilerplate from LCAV (Legal Community Against Violence). Anyways, my understanding of our govt. is that is pretty standard across many industries/issues and isn’t specific to guns.

What makes a lot of the so called sensible gun laws (anti-RKBA stuff) so irritating is that i so overly broad or really has zero to do with making any difference in reality (things like barrel shrouds and forward pistol grips) and then you get the source of gun memes like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ospNRk2uM3U

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Yup; that was my point.

You can’t write gun laws based on the assumption that everyone is a highly skilled and responsible gun user. You have to assume that a proportion of gun owners will be stupid, reckless and irresponsible dickheads (or worse), and structure the laws accordingly.

And, while you could have one set of rules for urban shooters and another set for rural folks [1], it would greatly complicate your law and create a lot of difficulty with edge cases on the borders. You’d probably also see it as discriminatory, given the political and racial divide between rural and urban America.

When you have no effective registration and licencing of firearm ownership, it is trivially simple to purchase weapons in a permissive region and transport them to a restricted region [2].

[1] Australia does do this to some extent; it’s a bit easier to get a gun license if you’re a farmer.
[2] As is already happening between states.

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135

That is to some extent, a given in the US. Gun laws very widely from state to state. Cities have some restrictions that you won’t find in rural areas, as well.

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136

Sorry, this thread has grown very long, so I haven’t read the 50 latest posts (maybe more), but I just want to say, the Youtube Channel “Forgotten Weapons” is a real treat.

I’ve been watching a lot of Forgotten Weapons in all my free time for about three months now, and I think I have a much better understanding of firearms and their mechanisms. Maybe to the point of considering taking classes in engineering…

They really are fascinating, well-made machines. And even when they’re not well-made, like a crude khyber pass knockoff, they’re still very interesting. And get this, these knockoffs are usually made by some dude in his garage with a bunch of files and some metal, who’s been told “make a copy of this” and been handed a functional, captured gun that was made in a factory. Even though this likely blacksmith has absolutely no documentation. The qualities of the crude copies are quite frankly astounding, when you realize they’re using a single piece of equipment as the entire blueprint.

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137

I need to sit and watch this more, the problem is I usually just listen to stuff at work, and for something like that I really need to watch. But yes, it is super interesting if you like firearms, history, machines, and/or engineering. Firearm design has sort of settled down into a handful of known methods that work really well, but back in the day they spent a lot of time experimenting to find stuff that works.

Yes, it is amazing what people used to do with just some files and measuring tools. Did you see the Chinese knock off one, where they were cloning Mausers and other European pistols? The machinists were skilled, but they just had no idea how some of the functionality worked, putting in screws that were unnecessary or making sights that looked close to the part, but didn’t function. Stuff like that is still being done today in places like Pakistan and the Philippines, making knock offs in primitive shops.

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138

In the USA the converse is true; we have had a reasonably functional patchwork of laws that were heavily localized, but that’s being steadily knocked back in favor of extremist laws that act at more encompassing and inappropriate levels. For example states overriding cities and universities, or attempting to override federal laws. A lot of people with power seem to want to extend their punitive authority over more area, including areas that they have never visited and don’t know anything about.

But there are no new opinions on guns in the USA!

Opperguncontrol.jpg1000×748 955 KB

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139

Honestly, the copies, rip-offs and fakes are the most interesting guns. All the Chinese mystery pistols that would be crazy to try and shoot for fear of them exploding in your hands.

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140

“A Dangerous American Institution: The Untrammelled Revolver” by Frederick Burr Opper first appeared in Puck magazine in 1881.

Love this.

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