I have talked to my dad, but it still does not explain to me why anyone would want to be treated like that. I think anybody who goes through that has something missing in their life they are desperately trying to fill.
Be all you can be just never soothed us. You lost me in that part about scrubbing piss with a toothbrush.
- Aesop Rock (Fast Cars)
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Bootcamp isn’t like that any more for most military branches unless you’re going into an elite unit.
Well, according to this link:
and this link:
It’s the requirements that have changed, not the abilities of the service members.
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Thanks, I wasn’t sure on your intent there.
I did a quick google search and couldn’t find anything about basic strength limiting women’s paticipation.
Even the link in this post says that 30 men in addition to the other two women dropped out. By those numbers, women have a better average 
.
Thirty other Marines, including two women, were unable to complete the training that the successful female candidate did. women dropped out.
Edited to clarify
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What did you expect? The Marines don’t have an ‘almost did it’ as an option.
If you’re a youngest child it might rhyme with something.
No one wants to do a lot of BS they have to put up with in order to meet a goal. While it isn’t nearly as bad, there is hazing and grilling and blood sweat and tears in competitive sports as well, as an example.
From what I understand regular boot camp is a cake walk compared to 3 or 4 decades earlier. For example you can’t actually assault a recruit. You can smoke their ass all day with push ups and running, but not physically punch or choke etc. And if you aren’t a big fuck up, you are less likely to get 3 guys yelling at you at once.
From what I understand, there are real reasons for the tear down and build up. Plus if you plan to take a combat role, if you can’t handle 3 dudes in your face spitting while they yell, how are you going to handle getting shot at?
While I haven’t been in the service, I have read first hand accounts and especially with combat units, these people trust each other with their lives. There is a common bond that just doesn’t translate to any thing else. In fact that seems to be one of the issues with transferring back into civilian life, is this support system you had to keep you alive and safe is suddenly gone. Now you’re suppose to trust Jim in accounting? I don’t fucking thing so! The man can’t even make a proper cup of coffee!
IIRC two concerns with women combat units was them able to carry the standard load out (those fucking back packs get heavy as fuck) as well as things like drag a wounded buddy into cover if needed or fire man carry them. So certainly strength plays a role and there are physical requirements, which was my point. But certainly for the elite schools shes going to, it is WAY more than just physical strength that one needs. And we have had decades of women firefighters who have to pass the same tests with the heavy hoses etc, so clearly one can still do the job even if average strength is less.
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Fungus? Youngest fungus?
There are a ton of issues here beyond what first may appear to be the case. Injury rates are a big one. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1279143/
A soldier injured in the field becomes a burden on the transport system, the medical system, and leaves duties undone that have to be taken over by others, until a replacement can be expensively trained and brought in.
I have always thought that the biggest issue to overcome will be the privacy issue. It is fairly easy for USAF and Navy facilities to construct segregated berthing and latrines. It is another issue entirely when a forward deployed marine unit is stuck for days living in one room of a destroyed building.
Marines do what they are ordered to do, and that includes the diversity issue. They simply find a way to make it work. In practice, from my personal experience working with a gender-integrated Marine unit, the issue of strength is common knowledge, but worked around. When everyone is called up to unload a truck or aircraft, everyone jumps right in, but the women always carry lighter loads, and at slower speeds than the men, on average. Nobody complains or says anything, it is just something that is apparent. I have no doubt that many of the women could carry box for box what the men do, but the effort required would not be sustainable.
but the truck has to get unloaded or loaded right the heck now, so it gets done. Since some of the marines are doing less than an average amount of the work, everyone else ends up doing more than they would normally expect to do.
Once again, when we are talking about Marines, they will do whatever it takes to make it work.
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There’s a funny thing about requirements; Who sets them? How? Why?
Prior to 1940 it was an implicit requirement that fighter pilots have two legs. Douglas Bader said “fuck that, Imma fly!” and he was right.^ Similarly, Army grunts also used to have to have legs. Afghanistan and Iraq (plus technology) put paid to that one. Astronauts used to have to be test pilots - that one has been gone for ages. Then they had to be men, until NASA instituted the active policy that led to Sally Ride. No-tattoos was a recruiting and re-enlistment requirement, then it wasn’t, then it was again. Etc.
Just because there is a standard, it doesn’t implicitly make the standard ‘right’ or ‘just’, or even useful. If there is no evidence that indicates that ‘five evaluated hikes’ produces better soldiers than three, why bother with the extra two? What is the purpose of the ‘first day endurance test,’ why was it ever a pass/fail test?
Standards are important, fo’sho. But they aren’t magic, and when they get in the way of objectives that actually matter, then it’s time to fuck them off.
^ he was also a colossal arsehole, but he was right about the legs thing
That’s the same in every unit. Some guys are stronger; they carry the heavy shit. Some guys are weaker; they carry less shit, and make up for it in other ways. I remember a multi-national artillery exercise from a few years ago. The hosts were, generally speaking, big guys. When it came time to resupply ammo they were each carrying a box of 2x 155mm rounds on each shoulder. The visitors were, generally speaking, a lot smaller. They carried one box between two guys. It was funny, but the job still got done. Of course, if the guests hadn’t turned up then the hosts wouldn’t have had any 155 to play with, since they didn’t have any of their own. So who had the last laugh there?
Women bring capabilities that men just flat out can’t do, or at best do horribly. There probably aren’t many women who can carry a box of 155 on each shoulder (and, frankly, there aren’t that many guys who can either), but they make up for it in other ways, creating a better unit overall.
If they’re given a fair shake of the stick.
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For some folk, there are so few options that military service can get them out of an area, give them something to put on a resume, and provide college tuition money.
I have my suspicions you’re not a youngest child.
Privacy would be a non-issue if we could get rid of the puritanical BS America is still haunted by. There are other countries that have unisex showers and bathrooms and they manage just fine. If seeing naked people wasn’t taboo it wouldn’t be a big fucking deal.
Well I am glad you have some first hand experiences to share. I mean this all makes sense. And while they may be a bit behind the curve unloading trucks (which I worked at Walmart, we did that shit too all the time, and we had women stockers), what about other daily tasks? What about combat patrols or other such maneuvers? Do you know how the Israelis have their units integrated?
I don’t think anyone wants it, but it’s a hurdle you have to overcome to reach the goal that they do want (becoming a Marine in this case). You could think of it as part of the mental training, in the same way that enforced exercise is part of the physical training.
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Your suspicions would be completely wrong.
I think anyone joining the Marines knows exactll what they are going to get, so somewhere in their psyche they must want that. I watch Full Metal Jacket and I don’t think to myself, “Yeah, that looks like something I want to happen to me.” But apparently some people do. Gomer Pyle would be different.
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