Yah, the citizenship revocations were more of the “hey we found a supervisor from Treblinka living in Toledo 30 years later” variety.
My point was just that, it does happen. That was news to me when I learned about it. As a non-American, I naively thought American citizenship was sort of a sacred thing that couldn’t be taken away once you got it.
What has the current crop of republicans ever done in the past 2 decades to make any of us assume that they will compromise or do anything to work along side the democrats? This is how they operate now. And they are finding ways to ensure they keep a majority, even if that means disenfranchsing voters (voter ID laws, voting roll purges, dropping people off the rolls for not voting in one election, etc). They are not interested in coming to terms, they are ready to tear the entire system down and to back an autocractic government if their “enemies” (meaning those of who are not white christian, straight, and conservative leaning) have a chance of getting into power.
They don’t give a shit about you or me if we don’t let them have their way exactly, even if that means that some of us have less or even no rights. It’s their way or the highway, and they will, no, in fact they have, elevate an oligarch who is obviously and starkly corrupt to do so. They are not interested in bringing you to their side, only in subjugating you if you don’t agree with them.
I’m sorry if that’s harsh, but it really seems to be where we are right now.
It’s not the Republicans at the top I’m talking about, it’s my Fox-News-watching, Breitbart-reading cousins [1], who are enabling them. Because somehow, they’ve been scared into accepting authoritarianism, and genuinely believe that a tyranny will help, if only we choose the right tyrant. I’m sorry, but I can’t accept the idea that forty-something per cent of my countrymen, including a lot of my family, are unsalvageable. That way lies civil war.
[1] Yes, cousins, not uncles or grandparents; I’m old. But some of their kids and grandkids have also bought in.
Did I somehow personally insult your cousins by noting what McConnell is and has been doing in the Senate?
I don’t know your cousins, but why would they be scared, when it’s not them who the GOP is going after? Unless you mean they are scared of some bullshit story about what they democrats are going to do to them (white genocide, stalinism, whatever nonsense breitbart spews forth)…
What do you want me to tell you here? That we should give them what they want so that they compromise with us? The people who are running the show will not compromise with us, and some percentage of the voting public are willing to be less free in order to support their agenda. That’s just where we are right now… maybe don’t shoot the messenger?
I don’t know they are “unsalvagable” or not. Some might be, others might be convincable. No one ever said you can’t try to convince individuals to change. That does not change the current situation in our government one iota right now. By all means, do all you can to win folks over, no one disagrees with that. But it’s a far more effective political strategy to get out the vote among disaffected voters who are fed up with what the GOP are doing and can be convinced that voting is in their best interest.
Hardcore trump voters ARE a minority, and increasing voter turn out is the most likely effective strategey for defeating the GOP across the board.
That’s a sucker’s bet. You offer the olive branch. They take the olives.
Exactly that. Plus - have you read Altemeyer? A great many RWA’s have had life experiences, particularly in adolescence, that confirm “Mommy and Daddy know best, and it’s a mean world out there!” That wrecked car in high school, or that time the cops broke up the party, can lead to a lifetime of acceptance of authority - because of fear of the mean world.
Where on Earth did you get the idea that I was saying that? Trying to find common ground in a discussion isn’t ‘give them what they want’, it’s part of ‘reach out to them.’ I otherwise get the distinct impression that you have drawn a tribal line to exclude them - and by extension, me, for remaining on speaking terms with them. Your comments come across to me as condemnation for fraternizing with the enemy.
On the original post, I accept the premise that anti-sodomy laws should have been repealed long before Lawrence. I have that much common ground with the poster who raised the issue. I do not accept the conclusion that ‘the legistature must repeal all the unjust laws before it may be allowed to enact any further laws,’ and, like you, I find the danger of the unenforceable laws to be relatively remote (with the ‘you can’t beat the ride’ caveat). You and I have that much common ground. (Moreover, we both have other reasons to believe that drowning the government in a bathtub is probably a very bad idea.)
Then - and on an individual basis - we can begin to explore whether the ‘repeal all the bad laws first’ belief was a fervently held principle, a mindless regurgitation of an RWA talking point, or meaningless hyperbole. I’m certainly not about to write off the dialogue until I’ve explored at least that far. I’m confident enough in my own principles not to be afraid that RWA’s will poison my mind with theirs!
Is this what you are referring to, or did I miss it?
WILLIAM BARR: The framers would have seen a one-size-fits-all government for hundreds of millions of people, of diverse citizens as being utterly unworkable and the straight road to tyranny.
Nobody is talking about drowning the gubmint. I stated that considerimg the fact that the current administration is looking for ways to revoke citizenship based on legal infractions, bad zombie laws are even more problematic as this is exactly what they will end up being used for. Furthermore, Even the supremes cant save you from bad laws:
Fullerer stop!
Well, my point is that the GOP is playing a zero-sum game, even if the democratic party is not. the democrats have been endlessly capitulating for the past 15-20 years, and the GOP is steadfastedly refusing to give an inch on anything- their supporters LIKE that, I’d argue. Their hard core supporters LIKE that about the modern GOP, that they refuse to give an inch and are willing to play dirty politics. That’s the mindset, that any compromise is failure, because they believe the Democratic party is acting from the same playbook, despite evidence to the contrary.
And there are things that SHOULD not be up for compromise - anything to do with basic human rights for example should be off the table. Some in the GOP (including the leadership) are absolutely eager to enact laws that directly attack vulnerable communities.
That is NOT what I said or in anyway implied. Do you really think you’re the only person here who has relatives who are on opposite sides of the aisle? do you think you’re the only one who is hurt by that? I LIVE in a red state, I have conservative relatives just like you. I struggle with that, too. So don’t moralized to me and tell me I dont’ understand what it’s like, when I very much do.
I’m done. Believe whatever you want. Clearly you don’t have any interest in discussion with me. There are plenty of other people here who aren’t an asshole like me.
good day.
Real world example of exactly this:
In Oregon, the Democrats won a supermajority in both the state House and Senate in 2018. Last year, the legislature was set to vote on a tax increase on businesses to (finally) adequately fund the education system that had been languishing for 20 years. GOP members fled, to prevent a quorum for passing the law. The governor had to send state troopers to collect them for the vote. The legislature then proposed a cap-and-trade bill to limit carbon emissions, and the GOP again fled, this time effectively blocking the bill before the session ran out.
The legislature once again proposed a cap-and-trade bill in the current session, but with many key provisions cut as a compromise to the GOP, including a 100% exclusion for transportation fuels for all rural areas of the state. The GOP fled again and are currently AWOL for the fifth straight day.
The current Republican party sees compromise as a sign of weakness, and stabs the open hand you’re offering them.
Like it or not, what the politicians do in their capacity as representatives matters, and if they are not getting voted out, then we have to assume that they are making someone happy by their actions.
Right? They’ve been doing this for a couple of decades now. It’s a confirmed enough pattern that we need to take it seriously and Democrats need to act accordingly. Does that mean we can’t also continue to persuade people in our lives that they are wrong politically? No, but we do need to pay attention to the people that are elected, what they do, and to consider that in our plans for the future. I’m not attacking anyone by saying that, merely pointing out the reality we’re in right now.
I’m willing to write off the Know-Nothing 27% as unsalvageable (if you know people like this, you have my sympathies). However, the other approx. 22% of non-millionaires who vote GOP are going to have to figure out on their own that they’re constantly voting against their self-interest.
There’s also Lakoff.
Again, though, breaking through the damage done by crappy parenting so that they can do things like vote like a mature and thoughtful person is not my job but a psychologist’s.
[Bad parenting explains so much in life. I sometimes wonder what terrible upbringing leads Libertarian tr0lls to do things like keep returning to forums under various paper-thin guises after it’s been made clear they’re not wanted by the community or site owners.]
Yep. See the Obama-era episode of the Daily Show where John Stewart is yelling, “Mr. President, You’re Frodo!”
Hell yeah. Our parents fuck us up, they do. Not always, but the older I get, the more I think that consistent, unconditional love is especially important. And yet, few parents in the U.S. at least seem capable of delivering that, especially as neoliberalism grinds most of us down into worse and worse living conditions.
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