Thoughts about manhood from an avowed feminist

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This might not even be a Kentuckian thing. I’ve been in mosh pits more polite than the scrum around Bargain Fat Quarters at the local craft fair. :laughing:

But it also strikes me that I might be just noticing this due to me being at least twice the size of anyone else there, so I’m deliberately just not being as assertive as everyone else. I And honestly, I don’t want to be “that guy” elbowing my way through. Even the nicest fabric and the lowest price just isn’t worth that.

And this might be better in the other thread, so I’m posting it here. :smiley:

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My wife is a quilter so this gave me a good laugh.

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I’m not really one for large power differentials in relationships, whatever the gender roles involved. While I can understand role playing, I don’t think I could do it convincingly (it’s not a criticism of others, just where I am right now). What I do like is being well matched with someone, i.e. I can have strong opinions and push against the other person, and they won’t just give way or dominate me, and they can do the same to me. On the other hand, I think it’s great if people have some areas of the relationship where they take the lead and some where they let the other person lead – I just wouldn’t like a situation if it’s mostly one person in the lead (whichever role I’m in).

I see vulnerability a little like socialism: it often gives power to the state and carries some risks with it, but it opens you up to a lot of advantages. Libertarianism would favour autonomy, although it’s not as efficient in sharing resources and it leaves many people out. Being vulnerable in a relationship opens you up to a lot of opportunities and can make for a much more fulfilling relationship, but it only works if the person or people you’re with are trustworthy. It’s great to be able to go home and realise that you don’t have to fight for your side like you would elsewhere; that the other person is also thinking of your interests as you are of theirs. On the other hand, if they betray that trust they have a lot of ammunition to hurt you with.

A number of studies have shown that 50% or more women would describe themselves as having been tomboys as children. When over 50% of the sample doesn’t fit the norm, it sounds like a failure of the norm to accurately describe people. I presume that you would have a similar percentage of men who wouldn’t identify with a lot of the male social norms, if it wasn’t so stigmatising to do this.

One thing I will say is that people often show their vulnerability in different ways: for some talking about emotions is very important, for others not as much. One general thing that I find is that sharing an experience with someone without necessarily talking can be very therapeutic, and can involve quite a bit of vulnerability.

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Well said! I agree 100%.

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But do you really think vulnerability?

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I think vulnerability, therefore I am vulnerability.

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I have an interesting perspective on this because I lived it.

My husband IS a true alpha male wild Scotsman as @knoxblox put it. Yes, a 5th degree black belt in one martial art - high ranking black belt in at least 3 other styles. Can touch your wrist and take you right to the ground. Does those one touch knockout Kung Fu chops like Bruce Lee. Throws knives. Collects swords (and can use them). An ace shooter. Kayak enthusiast. Drives an SUV (of course). Wears a lot of cargo pants. Carries a pocket knife, always. Has a super manly man job. He’s the type of guy who does all his decorating with antlers (for a little Beauty and the Beast humor). He’s not a real big guy; he’s not obviously from his appearance so super alpha masculine (except the cargo pants) but he’s got a Charles Bronson vibe going on.

When we were in college and first dating, we had a real bad chick flick type of romance, to the point that when I would tell people about it later they thought it was creepy. He took me out to dinner EVERY NIGHT for 6 weeks straight. Like in Breakfast at Tiffany’s, I literally had no food in my fridge. He drove me to my classes. I stayed at his place. He cooked for me (he’s a good cook, as long as it’s manly food like omelets with loads of cheese and salsa, or something on the grill, or deep fried). After we graduated and I moved temporarily back to my parent’s house, he’d fly me back to New Orleans and I’d come in and be romanced from the moment I got off the plane to the time I got back on it. There was a totally surreal quality to it.

It was really the loveliest thing to be so totally nurtured and cared for. I wasn’t really that into him at first, but he was just so persistent, and he was so earnestly gaining my trust. Over time I came to implicitly trust him in a way that I had never felt about anyone else. I was not used to trusting someone and he understood that he had to earn my trust.

We broke up when we were young, then didn’t talk for 15 years, then connected again as adults where we instantly felt once again the intense chemistry, and the trust we had built when we were young was still there. After just a couple of days together, I left my first husband for him (that marriage was so over at that time).

After now being together nearly ten years, it’s hard to maintain the vulnerability and the highly gendered roles so much, but it’s such a great foundation for a relationship.

We’ve had some conversations about vulnerability and about how there is a gentleness to him that most people miss. I think for him at least creating that situation that to many people would have seemed so one-sided was a way to create a safe space for himself, someone who was willing to trust him implicitly and allow him to express his nurturing side. For me, what I got from it, was letting someone in. Being so dependent but yet knowing I was totally safe within that, it made me feel so cared for. And I am so independent, have always been. It was nice, is nice, to let that go.

As far as the bodice ripper stuff goes, yes, there is something really SEXY about having someone create such a deep trust.

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Yes, trust is very important, right from the start.
I definitely remember a few instances where I could have helped some nice female I wanted to impress (Yes! I can fix your plumbing! Yes! I know how to flush a radiator!) but couldn’t even convince them it was possible because my personal “slightly effeminate” demeanor got in the way.
“I’m sure you know what you’re doing, but I think I’ll call (alpha male Rick/a plumber/my dad) over to do it.”

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Well, as a woman who dated also someone who did this sort of thing in a totally different way, and he was slightly effeminate and weird, you can totally do it with your own kind of flare. Though in his case, having loads of money really helped. But his thing was more like “gentleman” than “caveman.”

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As an aside, I’ve always kind of wondered what “flavor” of slightly effeminate vibe I give off. I would much prefer it were an Alan Rickman feel, but let’s face it. I was raised Midwestern. It ain’t happening. :laughing:

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LOL. Work it!

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The great thing about getting married in one’s thirties is making wiser and generally more mature decisions than in one’s twenties. I nearly got married right after college graduation, but I’m so glad I didn’t (it would not have lasted). Not saying no one marries well early on, but I was much better suited to building a solid long-lasting relationship in my thirties, and almost no one I know from my generation or later who married in their twenties is still in that marriage.

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I was really eager to set up my own adult life after college. I wanted a child, a job. I grew up in a home that was chaotic and unstable. I wanted to create my own very stable life. In a way, I did that with my first husband. I had a child. I had a beautiful home. I had all the material things I associated with love and adulthood. It was important to see that the material things I associated with love were not the same as actual love. I had to go through that to grow up.

Because I am married to a man that I dated when I was young, the biggest lesson I learned along the way is that I really don’t know how love works. I think I wanted control over it when I was young, but now I am a lot more willing to just not know and be dragged along and fight from a really emotional place in me. I don’t think I trusted myself to be able to push from my emotional resources when I was in my 20s.

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