https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/921443135049355264
https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/897243189211430912
https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/921444771394093056
https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/921445283254489088
https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/921446151882231808
https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/921446688514084864
That’s good. You did so with a lot of support around if they did try anything though, and fundies tend to not be violent when they are representing their church. Try this.
I got beaten up by fascists on a street about 5-20 metres away from a major road to a major road on a bright sunshiny day for being trans. I didn’t choose to interact with them, I had actually crossed over the road to avoid walking past them. They crossed over as well and hit me with a metal bar. No-one was showing any signs of helping me until someone someone saw me in their garden trying to get away from them, then being pulled to the ground and kicked and stamped on. Previous encounters with them had shown that they had no interest in debate other than with their fists.
Having just written about this event again, I realise that I should write about it as a separate topic in as much detail as I can (I have holes in my memory because of concussion). That way I can just link to the post instead of rewriting what I remember of the event at that particular moment. Not today though, it will be emotionally draining and I have other things I want to do that are only happening today.
I used the example that was available, but the guy I talked to was certainly anti-abortion, and if there was a hard-core fundie around looking to blow up abortion clinics and kill doctors then they would probably get along, or at least be able to have a friendly discussion regarding abortion.
Think of the world these people live in, they’ve built little bubbles where everyone they talk to is in agreement with them and it’s really easy to dehumanize. That’s why I was able to be effective in talking to that guy, because I was a pro-gay atheist who was respectful and listened to him and that really clashed with his stereotypes of what a pro-gay atheist would be like.
I think talking to a Nazi would be exactly the same, he or she would go looking for a fight or at least a nasty argument and I’d try to give them a respectful and empathetic conversation. They might just yell back nonsense, but if they actually try to argue or persuade you than I think you win, because the moment they do that they need to start empathizing, and at that point it’s really hard to still be a Nazi.
To be honest that’s kinda the tactic I’m using now, I started this exchange with a lot of righteous indignation because I do legitimately feel like punching Nazis is more about finding an excuse to use physical violence than it is about protecting people from Nazis. But me being all yelly didn’t do squat, trying to be more respectful maybe I can influence you, maybe I get influenced instead.
That’s the philosophy I try to take to these arguments, respond with as much empathy as possible, because if you can make the argument about empathy then if you deserve to win you should.
I have, I heard it from Alamba’s next senator. Though, to be fair, they’re more advocating for a Taliban style government than taking extra-judicial action, and as a point of tactics that probably makes them more effective.
True, I was in no physical danger. And if that guy was closer to the rest of his group (so it was a larger conversation) I doubt it would have been nearly as effective.
People in groups tend to be really good at absolving themselves of responsibility for their actions, it sounds like that’s a bit of what happened with the shooter in this story, on his own he was probably harmless. But in a group he was supposed to be a Nazis so he became that much worse, then his buddy made a suggestion, he followed the suggestion, and someone almost got shot.
I don’t think violence is the answer to that (unless there is an actual war going on) though I doubt it’s possible to engage them in discussion. For a big Nazi march maybe the best response is just a big peaceful counter-protest at a distance. Accept those Nazis are gonna Nazi for the duration, try to show that they are just a minority, and then try to win the cultural argument when it’s over.
That’s fine and I’m very sorry to hear that happened and there’s probably not a lot you could have done to prevent it, I’m certainly under no illusions that I would have been able to open my big mouse and accomplish anything besides getting my teeth knocked out.
Punching a Nazi is exceedingly unlikely to make the Nazi you have punched (or any other Nazis for that matter) change their mind about Nazi ideology, true.
But, it can make them think twice about spreading it so brazenly.
It can make Nazism (and other related ideologies) seem less appealing to those vulnerable to the appeal of Nazism. Fascism relies on the image of the Strong Man. Plastering a few Nazis makes them seem less strong. (Successful ridicule can work well here as well, but the trick is it has to be successful. Something that makes the Nazis look like a laughingstock, which gets spread all over the internet and other media.)
Finally, it makes it clear to those united with you in opposition to Nazism that they are not alone and that there are people willing to physically oppose this Cancer.
This merits another thread, but I’ll just say it here for now. Will we be able to pinpoint (at the time) when the US slips over into civil war? Or is that a job for future historians?
The difference is that Germany elected a fascist as head of state 70 years ago and the US electorate did it right last year.
BTW my point was a jab at the nra rhetoric of „good guy with a gun“.
Your today’s authoritarians and alt–right/white supremacists are homegrown and not instigated by contemporary Germany. You created them, you elected them, you have to deal with them.
It’s an international issue. Groups like the Italian CasaPound have been working with fascists in other countries for at least a decade, trying to get them to reinvent themselves for a modern world. That reinvention is the alt-right.
I’m not sure this is a good idea because projecting a Strong Man image is really just about a willingness to use violence. Look at Muslims, they’re a tiny and fairly peaceful minority in the US, but throw up a video of a few Arabs yelling in Arabic and people freak out. That’s because a handful of Muslims were willing to use really extreme violence and are they became perceived as a major force and existential threat to the US.
Nazis know that same game, I suspect there’s a number of them looking for an excuse to make themselves a major player by using terrorist tactics like mass casualty attacks. If we turn this into a game of who can use more violence I don’t think we share their capacity to use extreme violence, I don’t think we want to.
I would say that they’re looking for an opportunity, one where they can get away with it and appropriately (by their lights) influence people through terrorist tactics. All the evidence clearly shows that they already feel they have sufficient excuse for terrorist tactics. They’re just waiting for the right moment.
A necro-pedo-cannibal club is meeting at a park close to you, but you can’t be upset, they are just talking.
I think that’s the key (I was editing my last comment to go into that more but I’ll put in here instead).
The Nazis are aware it’s a PR game, maybe not consciously but they have their own understanding of what’s considered acceptable and they realize that mass casualty attacks aren’t.
Terrorism or protest your recruiting population needs to perceive the violence you use as proportional and justified. If you overstep (ie Timothy McVeigh) people are turned off and you lose recruitment, but if it’s proportional, race riots after police brutality, people tend to be encouraged.
Right now in the US the left/right conflict isn’t that extreme (nowhere near a civil war). Extreme leftists hold protests where they smash windows, throw rocks at police, but no one seriously gets hurt. The extreme right marches around in military gear with big guns and offensive signs but doesn’t actually shoot anyone. Both thinks their side is fine because the other side is a little worse.
But when the right overstepped with a full blown Nazi march and running over a counter-protester it hurt their cause, which is why they started playing up Antifa, to imply that the left had also escalated and they were just playing to the new standard. It didn’t justify the murder, but for the ugly protest itself a lot of their base accepted that “both sides” were about equivalent.
The more we turn up the violence the more it puts the game in their field since they are more willing to use violence.
I’ll readily admit that the idea of punching Nazis is really appealing. When I read the_borderer’s account of being beaten by fascists one of my first thoughts was “I wish I had been there so I could dive in, start punching fascists and save the day”. But that’s a thought driven more by my own desire to be some kind of warrior-hero than a realistic scenario driven by altruism, I really have no idea what I would have done if confronted with that scenario or what I should have done.
Though when it comes to individual Nazi agitators in public I think it’s a case where I think the most satisfying course of action is the wrong one.
And if they ever get in power again they will put an end to all talk and debate.
I do wonder how much selection bias plays a role in this. We see the former neoNazis who were changed by friendly outreach - not the ones who got that outreach and stayed neoNazis. (Nor those Nazis who got punched, changed their minds about parading in public, and then became disenchanted with the movement. If nothing else, those people aren’t going to then turn around and publicly advocate for that kind of conversion of other Nazis, so they’re invisible if they exist…) I’d like to think that love conquers all, but…
That too. Or when they make up 47% of white people in this country (because why else would they still approve of Donald Trump?).
“Asked about the pin he was wearing during the interview, Fears said “it’s
basically just like an SS thing.” Explaining the significance of the pin
would require an extensive conversation about World War II, he said. “And
it’s my heritage, I’m German.”
They’re not idiots - they’re traitors.
And your grandfather was a hero.
