Trump's anti-education Education Secretary owes millions in election fraud fines

What belongs in the bottom-right corner?


From the stories I have heard, you could openly smoke cannabis there, and about the worst thing that could happen to you is one of the teachers asking if they could have some.


Indoctrinating (while funneling money from the government) isn’t the same as giving a person a balanced education.


If you’re asserting that “Michigan has reduced educational outcomes for all students” (who aren’t going to private school), I think you should provide a link.

But for normal kids, yes, attainment has gone down in the state over the last 20 years.

If you’re asserting that this is primarily because of charter schools, I think you should provide a link.

You will have to stay after class and write “I will not bogart the joint” on the chalkboard 100 times.

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De Vos’ interests have nearly single-handedly ruined education in Detroit to a nearly irreversible degree, and after finally having out their for-profit charters and school of choice in place there is no evidence of any improvement to public or private schools - but there is evidence of the opposite. Imagine that the whitest richest suburbs are doing well, but now not even large, well-funded, safe school systems that are accessible for lower middle class parents are doing any better than inner city Detroit schools. So in the end the same districts that were doing really well in public education - Rochester, Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills, etc - are still doing well while other good schools in Novi or Clarkston are doing much worse and schools in poor areas like Detroit and Pontiac are doing the same or worse than before.

She also pays out at a rate unheard of in local politics (something like $25,000 per GOP legislator) and funds groups that stalk and harass union reps. All of that and she literally has zero experience doing anything but shadily funding shady interest groups with zero time spent actually making school policy.


Don’t get me wrong. I’m no fan of Betsy DeVos.

But the argument about charter schools is a separate issue. There is no evidence to suggest that providing poor communities with charter school choice has a negative effect on students.

This is why there are always many fewer spots in charter schools than there are students desperate to get into them. This is why the families who are lucky enough to get into charter schools are very, very happy with them.

Yes, it is fair. Those vouchers that divert kids from public schools to private? Hint The real purpose is to undermine public education.


You mean like the massive damage that No Child Left Behind did to our education system?


A couple of friends of mine contracted the Amway virus way back in the 90s (god, that’s a depressing phrase). I pointed out to them that my girlfriend & I already had a very efficient MLM marketing side-gig selling speed we got from the local Hell’s Angels chapter. I still feel that that was more ethical than selling Pyramid scheme cleaning products.


CREDO is cagey about their methodology, funded by conservative philanthropists that favor charter schools, and while making claims like “urban charter schools show the equivalent of 28 extra days in the classroom” they fail to mention that it is a 0.07σ improvement in performance and they are playing with the numbers a lot to show that the absolute worst most broken public schools in the country show improvements while the lower-income middle class public schools are showing dramatic decreases in performance (that’s why when you go to a racial breakdown the white and asian students there is a dramatic decrease compared to public schools). Also notice that this study compares the 2015 urban charter school results to the 2013 national results and shows that suburban and rural areas with charter schools have a negative impact.

Now we compare that with what I said:[quote=“emo_pinata, post:66, topic:91428”]
So in the end the same districts that were doing really well in public education - Rochester, Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills, etc - are still doing well while other good schools in Novi or Clarkston are doing much worse and schools in poor areas like Detroit and Pontiac are doing the same or worse than before.
[/quote]I already stated what CREDO actually found, even though they absolutely did not present the data they collected that way. Why? Well the Walter Family Foundations has donated $375K to Stanford for the research and $435K to VARC which pushes for other conservative goals like posting public rankings of every teacher in a school system (which they have done in NYC and it had so many inaccuracies you cannot find the report anymore).

Also, your second link is also misleading. It shows 90% of assigned district public school parents (no school of choice given) are satisfied or better with their public school compared to 92% of charter school or school of choice parents, while 98% of private school parents are happy (no surprise, they are religious). Even in just the “very satisfied” category charter and school of choice are the same. Meanwhile, parents making $30K or less like charter schools significantly more than school of choice (because school of choice does nothing for them) while parents making over $100K rank public, charter, and school of choice nearly identically. Same goes for teacher quality, discipline, etc.

Both of your links are presented as charter schools having a significant positive impact, when the data from both doesn’t hold up to the smell test whatsoever.


I remember watching a film about Dartington at my local comp (RE class, I believe, fuck knows why), and the Q&A afterwards was horrifying. The number of my classmates who said things like ‘I don’t think I’d like a school with no real rules’ left me aghast. I’m still cross I didn’t get to be educated there.


We watched one about Summerhill. It looked a lot better than our bog standard comprehensive.


Shit, yeah, that’s right: it was Summerhill. My mistake. With the kid who got to make his own crossbow in CDT class, so long as he promised not to shoot anybody with it, aye? It looked heavenly.


My friend and housemate was educated there. The whole non-compulsory lesson thing worked because most students would not go to them for their first few weeks there, get bored, then attend the lessons that interested them.

When we discussed my time at secondary school, we came to the agreement that I would have done better there but it had already closed by the time I was 11 and I expect that my parents would have sent me to another school after my first term, when I would have openly declared that I was a girl because I didn’t have the threat of having a bunch of kids beat the crap out of me every day for doing so.

It’s not like my parents would have been able to afford it anyway.

Summerhill was considered authoritarian by Dartington students.



“The Smell Test?” Statistics

Either poor and middle-class families deserve choices in their education, just like rich families have, or they don’t. I don’t know how many poor and middle-class families who love their charter school you’d have to talk to before thinking that maybe they deserve to have a satisfying education for their kids. I think there’s evidence that there are thousands.

Subjectively speaking, I know a few families, liberal democrats, all, who thank god for their charter schools (one family is very thankful because of how accepting their charter school has been for their trans daughter). And I believe that denying poor and middle-class families this kind of choice is neither compassionate nor liberal.

Denying proper funding to public education and giving it to poorly-administered ripoff schools all over the US certainly is neither. There’s very little quality control, and certainly will be less after Trump enters office.


It must be nice feeling that you are right instead of looking at the subject critically, but you posited proof that wasn’t very good so those feelings are all you have. Meanwhile, the leading lobbyist in the nation with zero experience with education just got handed the head position of the entire nation’s educational system after running a schorched earth campaign against all education in Detroit because what she actually cares about is getting public funding for religious private school educations for wealthy WASPs.

This is not about the concept of charter schools which have both been implemented well to implemented so poorly that the heavily biased academic review organizations released statements condemning them. The same can and should be said of public schools. This is about DeVos being placed in charge of the Department of Education which oversees everything from education standards to secondary school financing to primary school funding. Picking a random person from a Trump rally would do more good for education, and chances are that person would be more qualified for the job - because despite Trump and his supporters’ claims to the contrary, wealth is not a qualification for any position.


The U.S. spends more per-pupil than all but three or four other countries. The very worst school districts in the U.S. spend more per-pupil than any other country. It’s not a funding problem so much as a fiscal management problem.

There is no evidence, whatsoever, that charter schools are more poorly administered than public schools. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that charter schools are “rip off” the public more than public schools.

Again, this simply isn’t factual. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that charter schools have less “quality control” than public schools. If you want to deny poor and middle class families the opportunity for choice in education, you should have clear evidence of harm coming from that choice. That evidence is as clear as the evidence prohibitionists use to argue that we should keep pot illegal.

I don’t know why you would want tell a poor family, thrilled that they won a lottery to get into a charter school, that they shouldn’t have any educational choices because you think they’re being “ripped off” because of, um…well, because charter schools. Again, taking these choices away - for no clear reason - from people who simply can’t afford the choices provided by private schools, is neither compassionate nor liberal.