I surrender to your tenacity.
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Those ammosexuals do seem to find it mighty hard to loosen their grip.
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Except when theyâre being used toâŚyou knowâŚkill people. Thatâs the part the rest of us object to and why we want better laws on training, registration, and restriction. You know, those laws that the NRA and gun nuts say all lead to confiscation so we canât have any (and wouldnât have the ones we have now if they had their way).
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Yeah - out of the 100-80 million - MILLION - people who own/have access to firearms, 12,000 a year use them to kill others.
Your ideas sound good on paper - maybe MAYBE it would hinder a handful of of the mass killers per year. But the MAJORITY of the gun crime are not crazy mass shooters, but criminals killing each other and preying on victims.
Your suggestions - training, registration, and restriction - will not work against these people because they ALREADY do not use the system to acquire their weapons. Stop being so willfully naive.
It would be like HBO saying, âWe want to be responsible and make sure that only adults watch our adult programming. So with our GO service or Cable/Satellite customers we will have you login and confirm your age before each and every show.â
Sound great. Except for the people just downloading off the Internet via torrents or eMule or what ever. None of your new rules to the system will work because the people abusing it are not using that system!
Weâll have to disagree, then. I see people obsessively performing actions that are harmful to their own cause (whatâs driving the skyrocketing gun sales? Gun control advocates, full stop) to the exclusion of other activities that would actually save more lives. So Iâm going to continue to consider them gun fetishists; they demonstrably care far more about gun violence than they do about the causes and prevention of violence itself.
Last post, I swear. Iâm off to the woods now, and while I will go armed I shanât carry any firearms at all, nor shall I think on them.
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The fact that this number is not known terrifies me
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Terrifies? Really? Why?
Number may be higher - as we rely on polls to gauge percentage of ownership. And in households, one person may own the gun(s) but the spouse/partner has access and knows how to use it as well.
I know you to be a pretty level headed person around these parts, so Iâll take this in stride as just being passionate about this subject.
Gun nuts, like conservative christians, have a persecution complex. People for better gun regulations arenât compulsively doing anything. they donât even care about guns that much. they only want guns better regulated because they care about human lives. they are typically more then willing to make exemptions for certain classes of guns, and even allow most guns with better licensing. they arenât extreme, nor compulsive, they only post about the subject when there is yet another senseless killing same way we post about police brutality or copyright issues or any other issue.
see this is just nuts. pure crazy talk. do you really think people are only buying guns because other people think that their purchases should be better regulated? if so those people have serious problems and probably shouldnât be allowed to own anything more lethal then a plastic spoon.
The people for better gun regulation are usually willing to have on topic, sane, discussions, but we are typically greeted with denial, misdirection, a lot of fingers in ears, and temper tantrums. Why wonât the âresponsibleâ gun owners actually be responsible and take responsibility and drive responsible gun regulation reform? Show us that you can be responsible gun owners by taking responsibility. The NRA getting all pro gun owners to fight all sensible regulations is hurting responsible gun ownership long term.
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RE: We need more, harder, stricter laws.
Woman admits to buying gun for out of state felon boy friend. Boyfriend shoots and kills cop. Woman breaks the laws, subverts the system and COULD face up to 10 years in prison and $250,000 in fines.
She gets a year of probation.
Donât enforce the ones we have worth shit, but we need more laws.
It is neither crazy talk nor nuts. When say the Newton murders happened and it was found out an AR15 was used, people were paying 3-4x their value for one. Why? Because they feared a new law banning them. Thatâs not crazy because not only did we have a Federal ban for 10 years, there are several states that have banned or severely restricted them. In general there is a grandfather clause so you if you want one, you better get it before the law gets passed and while you can still find one.
If you can predict the future on what laws will be passed soon, please pass on your knowledge. Same with sports game winners.
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Sorry but this is a ridiculous argument, since we donât enforce some of our current laws well enough we shouldnât better regulate guns? Is this really the argument you are presenting? Are you expecting us to say that you are right we donât need reasonable gun laws because some current laws are poorly enforced?
au contrairâŚthat is indeed batshit nuts! i understand on a few occasions the ideas of restrictions have temporarily bumped demand, but you canât seriously argue that is the driving force behind gun sales, these people wouldnât care if they didnât already plan on buying at some point obviously. they freaked themselves out like crazy peopleâŚoh no they are coming for our guns, need more guns, quick buy lots of guns. ummm yeah, responsible gun owners of sound mind.
You do realize that you are describing gun owners who in a panic that they wouldnât be able to get a certain gun used in a mass shooting went nuts to try and get their hands on one even paying 4x the value, and you are saying that isnât crazy. why did they need this gun again? because target shooting? LOL.
i think youâd be startled to view the pro gun arguments from an outside perspective. they are highly disjointed and deflective of discussing the actual issue, they donât even fit together coherently and often contradict each other. it really is crazyâŚ
Again, how about taking responsibility and driving reasonable gun law reform that would be acceptable to gun owners, like anyone who was truly a responsible gun owner would. it is one thing to use the word responsible, it is another to realize what it means and take responsibility. do you really think that arguing against all gun reform is really the best long term strategy for gun owners? are gun owners really that short sighted?
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Because, OMG, they might not be able to have their life be complete without an AR15?
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The point about pro-gun people driving reform themselves as responsible citizens and to head off worse laws gets brought up over and over in these threads. The response from pro-gun folks is basically crickets chirping.
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[quote=âredesigned, post:204, topic:68685, full:trueâ]
Sorry but this is a ridiculous argument, since we donât enforce some of our current laws well enough we shouldnât better regulate guns? Is this really the argument you are presenting? Are you expecting us to say that you are right we donât need reasonable gun laws because some current laws are poorly enforced?[/quote]
Well you need to expand on what âbetter regulationâ means to you. What âreasonable lawsâ you propose. It is hard to counter nebulous laws.
The above illustrates 2 points:
-
Most (if not all) proposed new laws (other than complete bans) donât stop criminals from getting guns. His GF was clean and she didnât care she was breaking the law for her out of state felon boy friend. What new law do you suggest that she wouldnât just shrug and break as well.
-
Some have suggested that we need tougher, no-nonsense laws. If we just made the punishment severe enough, people wouldnât take the risk. While I already countered that harsher laws donât translate to better behavior, we often times barely enforce the laws we have. No real punishment for getting your boyfriend felon a gun? How can you not be outraged by that?
[quote=âredesigned, post:204, topic:68685, full:trueâ]
au contrairâŚthat is indeed batshit nuts! i understand on a few occasions the ideas of restrictions have temporarily bumped demand, but you canât seriously argue that is the driving force behind gun sales, these people wouldnât care if they didnât already plan on buying at some point obviously. they freaked themselves out like crazy people⌠[/quote]
You have never bought something you sort of wanted because of a perceived or real scarcity? That is sales tactics 101. âBetter get this car now, I got a guy coming in tomorrow looking to buy.â âLimited Edition! Only 10 left!â âOnce I sell out of these, I canât get any more in.â Pretty much basic human decision making, even if it isnât 100% rational.
But yes, fear of a ban will make people act. I did it in 2008 on one thing. Just in case. There are a lot of people who say âsome day, some dayâ, but when there is pressure that the supply may disappear, they go ahead and make the purchase.
Certainly things like the Newton scare did push gun sales. Some people really got screwed now that the market has cooled. Some people I think are buying on speculation as well.
[quote=âredesigned, post:204, topic:68685, full:trueâ]
You do realize that you are describing gun owners who in a panic that they wouldnât be able to get a certain gun used in a mass shooting went nuts to try and get their hands on one even paying 4x the value, and you are saying that isnât crazy. [/quote]
Are you an American? Nothing makes an American want something/want to do something than to tell them you canât have it/do it. The people paying 4x prices werenât âgun nutsâ, they were people with casual interests and had always thought it would be neat to get something like that, and now that they hear people calling for laws to ban them, they figure maybe they should get one before they canât any more. Or they pay post ban prices that are even higher.
[quote=âredesigned, post:204, topic:68685, full:trueâ]
why did they need this gun again? because target shooting? LOL.[/quote]
Like with many luxury items - they want one. But yes, they are buying them for recreational shooting. Or to have. Or to resell. Not to run out and shoot people.
Again - you will have to articulate exactly what you are talking about. We have a ton of laws. We have had background checks in place since the mid 90s. You canât just order a gun online and have it shipped to your door etc. Yet despite lack of sweeping gun reform, gun crime is down as is most violent crime. So obviously things can improve with the current gun laws in place (and maybe enforcing them).
I have argued against many schemes and ideas for various reasons. Most proposed changes will affect the 80million legal owners only, and not the very, very small minority of illegal owners. But maybe you have a fresh idea I could get behind.
One law I would support is an investigation and opportunity to lock up some who is a restricted persons who gets denied on NICS checks. Around 80,000 a year are rejected, and like 40 people were even charged federally. While I donât think everyone rejected deserves jail time, it has to be more than 40. I mean, who do we not want to have guns and who is more likely to use guns in crime - restricted persons.
Actually that law should be in the books for some of those denied - there is just no enforcement.
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sorry, i expanded just a few comments up, you can see those here.
Almost all the countries that have passed highly successful gun reform have not enacted complete bans. Most mass shootings and gun violence donât happen from the type of criminal that has access to the illegal gun market. These sorts of laws have worked in country after country, they have never not worked. They couldnât possibly be more successful.
Yes I am, but I guess I am not affected with that defect. I think for myself.
If I tell you that you canât murder someone do you get the urge to kill someone? Probably notâŚbecause rational people arenât sheep. Anyone who can be entrusted to own something so lethal should be capable of a reasonable degree of autonomous rational thought.
Most of the guns that are the issue either belong to legal owners and/or started out that way. we donât even have any way to track the current owner of any specific gun. gun regulations in the USA are a joke and highly irresponsible. the types of guns us citizens can own without any sort of special permit is frightening. You are correct, the problem isnât illegal guns, the problem is that the entire system needs an overhaul in order to be responsible and accountable. Right now there is very little of either. You need to pass a test and get a license to drive a car, the car has to be registered and insured, because that is RESPONSIBLE. Not so with guns.
The very reason why most current gun laws are so poorly enforced is because the NRA lobby has stripped away funding for the ATF year after year. The ATF is the most underfunded government organization.
The facts are every country that has implemented better gun regulations has seen a significant reduction in deaths involving firearms. Even in the USA, states with stronger gun laws experienced significantly lower levels of deaths involving firearms than their counterparts with loose gun laws. Shitty gun regulations cost lives and are irresponsible. All of these countries and states have criminals, black markets, mental illness, and all the factors that pro gun advocates use to deflect the conversation, but better regulations have worked in every single instance without exception. It doesnât take a lot of critical thinking to realize that these deflective arguments donât hold any merit or stand up to intellectual scrutiny. None of those factors prevent better gun regulations from being unilaterally successful, even in the USA.
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Iâm going to bed. I may address the rest but I have a busy day.
I agree that someone like Newtown or CO Theater shooter were not involved in criminal activities prior and probably didnât have direct access to guns through non-legal means.
I completely disagree with the second part of your statement, unless you were just unclear in what you meant.
The majority of gun crime is from the criminal element - people who are often involved and exposed to illicit activities - and they absolutely have access to guns through illegal means. The interviews with felons in prison for gun violence show most of them get it from the black market, or they use a friend or family member to procure them.
I want to see you address the quite reasonable suggestions that were made by @redesigned (and others before, in similar threads).
Not gonna hold my breath, though.
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http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-diseases/mental-health
Very few of the countries with which the US might wish to compare itself dedicate the resources to mental health problems which their prevalence seems to require and which you suggest would make a difference.
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Mandated minimum sentences?
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Iâve addressed those suggestions in the past, and will try to do so again if the thread isnât closed. But it will probably be Sunday.
But as I have said before, many of the schemes are just more hoops to jump through for the 80 million legal buyers and completely subverted by the illegal one. There is also the issue that it is considered a RIGHT by laws. So even if I were to cautiously consider certain things, they wouldnât fly because they impede a RIGHT.
Believe it or not, I have people who want to spend time with me this weekend.
Right. Saving lives is not as important as the convenient access to firearms. Got it.
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