Comrade, it comes with food, housing, and healthcare. Hell, we could have a guaranteed minimum income if we set our minds to it.
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I donāt think youāll ever get anti-gun fetishists to start comparing actual violent crime rates instead of comparing āgun violenceā rates.
So how many spree killings at schools and public facilities do other countries have a month? More or less than us?
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You did it, @albill. Now drop that microphone. 
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I donāt think youāll ever get anti-gun fetishists to start comparing actual violent crime rates instead of comparing āgun violenceā rates.
I donāt think youāll ever get ammosexuals to see why doing so would be a distraction from the issue at hand (which is, too goddamn many guns that are too easy to get).
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Iām not sure you want to use āthe cops managed to stop a guy with a knife by shooting him to deathā as a positive thing. Not 'round these parts, anyhoo. Though Iām actually somewhat on the fence, personally (I think it very much depends on the situation, and I donāt know if they tried talking this guy down, at all, or just shot first, asked questions later).
I canāt speak to all styles of martial arts, but many of them include as one of their basic tenets āYou really, really only want to be using this for self defense as an absolute last resortā. Every martial artist Iāve ever met who had more than a cursory amount of training has told me āIf I can talk my way out of a situation or run away, thatās always my first optionā.
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Thatās also what every smart CCW holder says.
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Its not the smart ones who cause the problems though. And a karate expert who breaks their training and goes cray cay is going to injure a few people at most
Not an ideal situation, Iāll grant, but a damn sight better than someone in the same situation with a gun.
Iām sure Google can tell you if you really need to know. To me itās not really more important than the number of people who are attacked by flightless birds; interesting, but not motivational. (Those Australians are living in such a hell zone!)
Maybe I just donāt understand them, but to me your arguments do not appear to be designed to change anyoneās mind. If you just want to declare your allegiance to the anti-gun team, well, carry on then, but otherwise why not try to make your posts persuasive? Teach me why your arguments have merit, since we donāt seem to be able to build on shared philosophy or values.
Again, if you donāt care about changing the world to better suit how you think it should be, by all means carry on. But itās not really a conversation when you just shout down and insult everyone you disagree withā¦ I honestly thought the issue at hand included a violent knife attack.
If yāall anti-gun folks want to make strong points about the prevalence of guns in America, you might consider other areas where it makes a clearer difference (like the impact of gun availability on suicides for example) instead of comparing gun violence rates in the USA against gun violence rates in countries where people donāt have guns available to them. The suicide data will straightforwardly support your points and you might be able to forward your agenda by persuading other people to see things your way. The fixation on āgun violenceā makes you seem like you are purposely misrepresenting facts by cherry-picking your data points, and that damages your argument.
Not much of an expert then. Itās not very hard to kill an untrained person with a single blow. The difference that a missile weapon makes is range.
Iād much rather be in a classroom attacked by rogue judo man than rogue gun club man.
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Yep. But like guns, martial arts were not developed for defense. They were developed to fight wars. Martial Arts isnāt just Karate etc, it is also the various forms of sword fighting, archery, etc. Many martial arts have moved away from their roots of war and have become rules and points based sports (like many uses for guns have).
And contrary to the stereotype that anyone with a gun for defense is just itching to use is and blast the first thug they find and go home and fuck the prom queen, every person I know who carries for protection also has the attitude that the gun is a last resort to stop something bad. Situational awareness to not get into trouble, talking, or removing yourself from the trouble are all something people consider using first.
The problem isnāt with the average person with the tools and ability to cause harm but no desire - the problem is the people with the tools and abilities to cause harm and the desire to do so.
Yeah - in general it isnāt the CCW holders causing trouble PERIOD. You got one high profile case with a questionable outcome (still found justified). Donāt paint that as what is wrong with America or the cause of gun violence.
The āgun nutsā arenāt the freaking problem here. They arenāt using their guns to hurt others. The dense poor areas in the cities are the hot sports for gun crime and violence in general. They arenāt buying guns legally. They arenāt buying 1000 rounds for their $1000 Sig to go shoot at the range with. They have a $100 Raven or $200 Hi-Point and split a box with another guy because their āclipā doesnāt hold that much.
Right, and thatās great. The difference, though, is that to become a deadly martial artist, one needs to go through years of training (which also includes repeatedly beating into your head the responsibilities that come with it). To become a deadly gun owner, one simply needs to buy a gun.
Iāve said it before, and Iām sure Iāll say it again. Iām fully believe that you and your gun owning friends are responsible gun owners. The problem is, thereās effectively very little barrier to entry for NON-responsible gun owners (and yes, I know this varies from state to state as different states have different rules and regulations). And therein lies the problem. America needs to figure out a way to let the responsible owners buy guns, while somehow preventing the irresponsible ones from doing so. And that MIGHT involve making it a little bit harder (or more expensive!) for responsible owners to buy them, which one would think is a reasonable price to pay to have less people shooting up schools on the regular.
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A voice in the middle? WhereTF did you come from?!
(I kid, @WearySky)
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Canada! 
In all seriousness though - I can understand why gun owners (who use them for pleasure, target shooting and the like) like owning guns. Iāve gone to Buffalo to shoot at a shooting range once before, and it was great fun. I just kinda think America doesnāt seem to be very good at making sure that those who shouldnāt have them, donāt.
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Big misunderstanding, my unfinished paragraph was at fault. I am acutely aware of the right-wing violence in Germany.
Mister44 was suggesting that somehow, now that at last Europe has to deal with a larger than usual influx of immigrants there will be increased violence. He was quoting the Daily Fail which I wonāt give the benefit of exposure, according to which Austriansā are arming themselves in anticipation of some kind of Armageddon as a reaction to 100 000 refugees crossing the country. Now, I appreciate that Austrians are not always the most friendly lot, but having just been at the Austrian / German border, I didnāt perceive any sort of particular panic or preparation for civil war and I find it hard to believe that every Austrian home has a weapon, somehow none of the families I know own one.
Point is there is violence in Europe, but that violence hasnāt suddenly escalated just because in an area populated by 540 Million people there are two Million new arrivals. Right-wing violence doesnāt need actual refugees to flourish. It was doing just fine before a single Syrian entered Germany.
Obviously, the situation will be complex and there will be tensions, but what is needed is measured leadership not some kind of doomsday scenario.
I take huge issue with Mister44ās argument that somehow the heterogeneity of a population self-explains / causes propensity to violence. It doesnāt.
US violence is not down to the heterogeneity of the US population. Poverty / Inequality are far more likely causes. And guns do increase the efficiency of the murderously inclined.
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The āusā vs āthemā mentality is nothing new. It was already well rehearsed by the Greeks: Spartans vs Athenians.
More to the point, there have been considerable tensions among different kinds of āGermansā (if race is a fluid concept, these could be defined as racial). In the 50s / 60s so called āAussiedlerā German speaking German Nationals forcibly removed from the Eastern regions of the Deutsche Reich (now Poland & Ukraine) after WW2. The 80s saw a huge influx of Russlanddeutsche, people with German heritage from parts of USSR which never have been part of a German Reich (these people had German speaking Great-grandfathers or the famous German Shepard Dog to qualify them as Germans). Both of these groups were poor often traumatised refugees. They were welcomed in West Germany because they were playthings of the Superpowers. Then there was Unification which brought us the āOssiesā a derogatory term used for East Germans. All of these groups were at the receiving end of considerable prejudice / hostility / resentment.
Only to say that āusā vs āthemā is easy to do and no justification for violence.
Please stop saying that somehow the US just has to have a high level of violence to cope with variety. It doesnāt. US propensity to violence is not down to the diversity of the population. It is a mindset thing.
Having to conquer a land and eradicate the Indigenous population is probably not a great start for a non violent futureā¦
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You know, I agree with some of your points. I see where you are coming from and think it is coming from a good place. I just disagree we need more laws.
There are a lot of very dangerous things out there that you can buy with little to no training. Most dangerous thing I have ever done is fell a tree with an old school chain saw. Well maybe driving, but the most scared I have felt doing something was that tree. Do I need a permit to use a chain saw? Fell a tree on my own land? Use poisons? Herbicides? Insecticides? Run a generator?
While some people keep guns in their homes and may have minimal training, most states that issue a CCW (where you are taking them into the public) require at least basic training and testing. To hunt on public land (or private if you donāt own it, iirc) you need a hunting license and to have gone through a hunter safety course.
But MOST people who are serious about using a gun for protection get training. āGun nutsā are the ones most likely to be very proficient and safe. I have been to large shoots with dozens of people walking around with weapons and manage to never see a single muzzle sweep, much less an accidental discharge.
Out of 300 million + people in the US we have about 800 die from fire arms accidents. Though to be clear, some of those are suicides ruled as accidents. I wish we had in depth details. Like most accidents, I am willing to bet that many of them were not because the user DIDNāT know how to use it safely, but either didnāt care or was complacent with safety - either in handling or allowing unauthorized access. At any rate, because that number is SO LOW, I donāt see how you can justify the bureaucracy, expense, etc for some gov. mandated license or training. I donāt think it would make us much safer at all (note, every day I see licensed drivers ignoring safety rules.)
At any rate, I am 100% for education programs. We used to have basic safety courses in schools or 4-H and scouts. Education is paramount to safety.
And to be clear, I am not against all gun laws. I think the ones we currently have are pretty decent. I would be open to new ones if you could convince me they would do anything. The data I have seen on how criminals get their guns subvert any rules. They arenāt supposed to have guns in the first place, so licensing or registration will just be another law ignored. They either use the black market, or a net work of friends and family who are ācleanā can can buy guns using what ever scheme you set up. Some gangs even have one guy they recruit as their armorer. He stays out of trouble and buys stuff for everyone. The straw purchase is a very hard thing to combat. Though I know gun store owners will often decline selling to someone because it is clear the boy friend is picking out a gun for the girlfriend to buy.
In case you havenāt seen this, check it out. It is only one city but it is a snap shot of dense crime and who is committing it. Note too how many of the victims have arrest records. This doesnāt mean of course they deserve to die, but it shows that many of the victims of violence arenāt just random victims, they are involved in illicit activities that leave them prone to be in bad situations. The rest are caught in the cross fire or victims of robbery or domestic violence, etc.
thanks for the explanation, I see your reasoning and it seems that weāre mostly in agreement
the āthere are worseā argument is the lowest form of justification.
yes it is true that all the countries with high gun ownership have much higher murder rates, so comparatively yes, only to the countries with high gun ownership, but look at those countries and why their rates are higher. Now compare the USA to all other countries similar to the USA without high gun ownership rates. Pattern?
because of the HUGE gun leakage from the USA across their border. if you look at their gun violence statistics they are fairly in proportion to the amount of guns crossing the border. the US war on drugs has escalated and enabled the cartels, a lot of the violence in mexico has roots in US gun and drug policies.
unfortunately the US is one of the largest arms dealers in the world.
well that is the stupidest thing iāve ever heard people for gun control called, it isnāt the side with the fetish. people who are for gun control, donāt really give a shit about guns per se and arenāt really anti-gun, they care about human lives which is why they want better gun regulations and a reduction in the number of firearms, etc. only because of their lethal design. most of them are fine with hunting rifles, and reasonable regulated gun ownership. non lethal target weapons, etc. that isnāt a fetish. on the other hand having a basement full of deadly weapons, and justifying that collection despite the human life toll, fits the definition quite nicely.
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