Heed it, then. If you don’t like it when website editors pierce your ideological bubble, go to web sites where the editors respect that bubble and treat it with all due delicacy and diffidence.
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They are young but their spirit and incredible courage
I want the truth, not one-sided bullshit. You want some non-bullshit reporting, read this: http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/22199-focus-how-washington-is-playing-venezuela-like-a-fiddle.
It discusses how the US is pulling the strings in Venezuela, and it also discusses corruption in the Maduro government. What I am getting here is head-in-the-sand complaints against the government as if the government is the only party to this insanity.
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You do know that the right wing that is fomenting this whole thing actually wants blue collar workers to get killed in their pursuit of power? The more death, the more it looks like the government can’t keep control, thereby weakening it. This is the CIA playbook, and its been used over and over for the past 60+ years.
If you don’t know the history of the CIA in central and south America then educate yourself. The death squads in central america in the 80s? Remember them? No? Then you need to read your history. And the death squads, guess who trains them? The CIA and the US-government sponsored “School of the Americas”. Look it up.
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No, its not. It basic fact. The poor in Venezuela have little access to computers, and even less to English lessons. Can some of the poor speak English, and do some of the poor have internet access and twitter accounts. Probably a few. But that’s not who is coming on BB attacking the government. The bulk of them are the lower level elites who are college educated.
And you are just trying to twist what llazy8 was saying. He wasn’t suggesting the poor CAN’T speak English or use computers. He was saying that due to their poverty, they simply have little access to these things. Its you who is trying to suggest some sort of social-Darwinist message in what he wrote. Nice try.
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I think that if more people on the left accepted Bakunin’s Maxim then history would be a lot better. Unfortunately marxists insist that the dictatorship of the proletariat is the only correct way.
If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.
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The fact is that its very hard for people to slice and dice everything that is happening in a foreign country. The fact is that while there is much to criticize about Chavez, he did do some things to stand up to US American hegemony in ways that no other Venezuelan has done since forever. He did do some things that helped alleviate poverty. He did a lot of bad things too. Changing the constitution and trying to become dictator for life are terrible things. And that’s just the most obvious thing. But we in the US are often called upon to take positions on politics in foreign nations (largely because our government is generally so busy interfering in those nations), and when we hear a defense of neoliberal elitism and fascism those of us on the left tend to take sides against it. That doesn’t mean we don’t understand that no side is truly on the side of justice, we just tend to write in shorthand ways and not provide caveats and exceptions to everything we write.
The fact is that two posts were put up today on BB that took a very anti-Maduro line, and they ignored much of the complexity of what is going on in Venezuela. When that happens we tend to come out punching. That doesn’t mean we are blindly supportive of whoever is on the left.
But we are somewhat desperate for successful examples of social democracy, because we ourselves are being pinched in the neoliberal vice and want some hope that there is an alternative. When we see what is happening in Venezuela we know the picture is complex, but we also know the US government is behind a lot of the disruption. We know the picture is complex, but we know that there are very determined right wing forces, supported by the CIA and its cohorts, that have caused a lot of the currency inflation, food shortages, electrical outages and other destabilizing events.
Sure there are stupid college kids who think Che Guevara was a hero, Castro is a hero, etc. But most of us know better. We also know that the right wing are killers, and there is no limit to what they will sink to in order to get what they want. The history of the Americas is that very history. Mass manipulation of the people, economic, political disruption, murder and death squads; these are the tools of the fascist right, in Venezuela and everywhere else. Our own history is full of stories about the Pinkertons, who killed labor leaders and organizers, and generally helped suppress and impoverish our ancestors.
We want change. If Venezuela’s socialist government can weather these disruptions and reform itself afterward, it will be a huge win for socialism and social democracy. The right wing will stop at nothing to “prove” to us how futile that dream is.
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There are no Marxists here. Seriously. What we want is simple social democracy. We want a strong safety net, socialized healthcare, education, and a large and prosperous middle class. There are very few true Marxists anymore, anywhere. We are not anti-capitalist. We are anti-monopoly, neoliberal capitalist. Feel free to correct me anyone who actually is a true Marxist here. I don’t think you’ll find many, if any.
Blah blah blah. Evidence and sources please.
Sure, I read those things back in my youth days. Again, condescending and patronizing. And you are supposedly a progressive? Please…
The thing is I know first hand this is utter condescending and patronizing BS. From a guy that is supposedly, progressive. And, now from you (who, let me guess, have never been here)
Do you even hear yourself?
If you have a source that contradicts this, please provide it…
No, I’m saying it sounds PATRONIZING, CONDESCENDING. And from a guy that calls himself progressive, no less.
Yeah, sure. And that justifies the abuses, the corruption, and the complete ruin of our economy. Right.
Ah, now I get: We are just too dumb, and we don’t get the brilliance and genius of the guy. Thank you! I was confused…
More patronizing loony-talk.
My major at the University was History of the Americas. I think I know a thing or two about that subject…
I don’t care what you want man. And I don’t think is any of your business what is the system that Venezuelans will pick in the future for them. It’s a Venezuelan issue, after all.
I see, so its ancient history. Couldn’t be happening now.
I see, so the poor in Venezuela have mass access to English lessons, computers, the internet, etc. That would be odd, because the poor in the US don’t even have access to foreign language training and the internet.
It only “sounds” patronizing if you believe the poor are somehow inferior to you.
You claim to know about a subject yet your words continuously belie either your ignorance, or your clear bias and denial.
What do you want? You don’t really say, past getting rid of Maduro. What then? What is your ultimate goal for your country? Do you think that replacing one shitty, corrupt government with another is going to cure your country’s ills? Do you care for the plight of the poor in your country? Do you care if Venezuela becomes a pawn of US energy and financial interests again?
It amazes me that you claim to be educated yet you don’t say anything that isn’t one-sided and blind to other perspectives. To you, everything is black and white. That doesn’t say very much for your supposed education. In the world I live in things are almost never black and white.
Just stop. You’re not doing your movement any favors by cherry picking information and denying alternate perspectives. You just wind up sounding like a pitch-man for fascism.
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Oh, fascist, that one I’ve never heard before.
If we are going to violate Goodwin’s law, I believe we have reached the end of this discussion.
Goodbye. Believe whatever you want to believe in your loony word of conspiracies.
At least you have that freedom. Wherever you are.
Other than your biased sites, you haven’t provided any credible evidence this is happening now.
Well, this is odd. Being that you are supporter of chavismo and Maduro, you should be aware of one of the few positive things about Chávez tenure. The increase in computer and internet access:
http://www.correodelorinoco.gob.ve/comunicacion-cultura/venezuela-incremento-uso-internet-mas-40/
And where do I say or imply that? Your fantasy world?
More Strawman fallacy-ridden arguments…[quote=“Ygret, post:53, topic:23630”]
You claim to know about a subject yet your words continuously belie either your ignorance, or your clear bias and denial.
[/quote]
And more Strawmans, again…
What do I want for my country is not any of your business. Is my country, my issue.
Judging for your commentaries, I think that’s you man.
Don’t keep pretending you know me. You don’t.
I was referring to earlier comments about the left wing turning a blind eye to Fidel Castro’s dictatorship.
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Leaving aside the question of exactly who “we” are, I’ll take you at your word that that is what you want.
I don’t think that “simple social democracy” as you define it has ever been successfully maintained in a country which does not also have political democracy.
Those nations which feature presidents-for-life, revolutionary vanguard parties which suppress the opposition, and state control of the media, generally do a pretty piss-poor job of providing stable, long-term social democracy. Into the bargain they tend to throw human rights into the crapper and trash the environment.
It’s the inability to see that the Chavez/Maduro government is going right down that dangerous path which is troubling.
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No, you’ve demonstrated that one sided bullshit is precisely what you are craving. You have repeatedly complained here about people posting things that make the case against Maduro, and which therefore serve the interests of the CIA, United Fruit Company, Elders of Zion, et cetera. Each time, you’ve made it plainly evident that your complaint is that these things make the case against Maduro, and that you care whether they are actually true.
[Mod edit: Language]
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I totally agree with your assessment of the situation. The Chavistas are incompetent and are not helping anyone except some cronies (this is according to years of first hand accounts I’ve heard of decidedly poor friends and family members living in Venezuela). The Chavistas should have been tossed out of power when they suggested moving the date of elections and length of terms.
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Dale. Primero, más allá que la manera en que me estas verdugüeando, aclaramos que no dije ni una cosita en defensa del gobierno actual de tu pais. ¿Ta? No soy ingenux como para pensar que todo bien, ni bajo Chavez y Maduro no es Chavez ni mucho menos con su cero carisma y su cara de actor de telenovela. Segundo, ahora en inglés, every time someone has a different stance than you on BB, do you go telling them to write a book about all their “knowledge” (sarcasm quotes yours, buddy)? It’s rude and unproductive.
Retomando, tal vez en tu pais los ‘biotech entrepreneurs’ son pura clase obrero, pero luego nos tendrías que explicar como llegaron tan lejos, ojo. Lo que yo hablaba, de experiencia propria, es que tomo su tiempo darse cuenta de los distinos clases sociales en otro pais, y así entonces gente que a los ojos de unx yanqui pueden parecer requetecontra-humilde, puede en realidad pertenecer a una clase media conservadora. Para dejarlo claro, decía a lxs de BB que si estas en la intersección entre autonombrarse ‘entrepreneur’, y hablar un inglés tan perfecto que te publican afuera, y tener twitter, y pertenecer a la oposicion en Venezuela da una altisima probabilidad de haberse disfrutado ventajas sociales mas altos que el promedio de su pais. Or is that really ignorant, too?
(Summary: a reply to this user’s lengthy attack which over and over again called me ignorant. I reminded user jgraterothat I never said thing one in support of the current Venezuelan govt., nor Chavez’ before that. Mentioned that I find Maduro distasteful. Disclosure: I am a LBGTTQI activist and therefore am extremely well informed about Maduro’s disgusting position on teh gay and teh womenz, and about his new seducing of the evangelical right. It’s not about a simple pro/con debate. What the hell could be cut and dry in a situation like this?
What I was speaking about in a very first person account, was how when a Brit or Yankee or whoever from a first world country first comes to a poorer country, it’s easy to see that country’s elites as poor, because relative access to consumer goods is so skewed. And I said, and stand by the guideline, that if you’ve got a person fluent in a foreign language, who also has twitter (not the poorman’s whatsapp, but twitter twitter) AND is a member of the oposition, you’ve got a more than 50/50 chance of dealing with a member of a more fortunate minority. User jgratero then went on in a different thread to say that I was being condescending and patronizing by pointing this out. That is not my style. ‘Why don’t you write a book about it?’ is patronizing and condescending. Pointing out that in virtually any country in the world, but especially a developing one, someone who speaks a foreign language perfectly and uses twitter and is in opposition to a populist government is probably a duck.
I’m not a guy and I didn’t call myself progressive, though I might be. Depends on what direction we’re progressing in, reckon.
Thing is, for all you rear up and lash out at me, pointing out privledge is not an attack. Just as we’ve explained to every US republican who comes on here furious that someone questioned their relative comfort in the system, pointing out privledge is not an attack. And doing charity work doesn’t take it away. And, to get real for a second, in any freaking country in the world, but especially in poor countries where shit is harder every day, how many people go around bilingually entrepreneuring on twitter after coming up hard in the hood?
For over a decade, international outlets have offered a one-sided coverage of Venezuela’s situation, aimed at a. picturing Chavez and its supporters as thugs and b. the opposition as pristine defenders of democracy. Maruja Tarre is a perfect example of neoliberal thinking, and publishing her biased opinion as if it was a legitimate voice in defense of democracy and decency is of no help for US readers who are under daily exposure of main stream news agencies reporting, and would rather have access to some independent progressive reporting - which is, I think, the expectation of most Boingboing readers. Tarre’s views about the situation in Venezuela are upheld in the US by the likes of Otto Reich or Diaz Balart, is this the kind of vision that BB would uphold for the US? Just imagine if all the sources of information for people outside the country were Tea Party members to the right of the Tea Party… What idea would people have around the world about Obama’s timid social policies, which for most TP members is tantamount to “evil socialism”… or more so, about a social movement as Occupy, which has had all the attention of BB’s editors…? Xeni Jardin seems to be rather confused, when thinking it’s congruent to support the kind of views for Venezuela that are upheld by the same kind of elite that would support the right wing military in Guatemala … Why not ask the likes of, say, Oliver Stone or John Pilger, who have documented Latin American’s contemporary political situation in two brilliant doccumentaries - War on democracy [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBNDkPZ13TQ], South of the Border [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vBlV5TUI64]? Why not open the discussion to progressive thinking?
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