Serious question, what makes that poetry and not just a speech or talk or rant? Nothing rhymed. I know not all poems have to rhyme, but I thought it needed like a cadence or something. Per definition: “a piece of writing that partakes of the nature of both speech and song that is nearly always rhythmical, usually metaphorical, and often exhibits such formal elements as meter, rhyme, and stanzaic structure.”
Or is it the other use: “something that arouses strong emotions because of its beauty.”
A poem, a literary form that’s inherently loose and onto which people will project their own experiences and interpretations. You’ve interpreted it as a personal attack and a grand universal declaration of some sort that required a #NotAllOldWhiteMen response, but it’s a poem and it wasn’t about you, it was about her experience. It could be read as Cory did, as a more universal statement, but she didn’t actually say anything like that. Hers was a personal statement of her experience of how speech-policing affected her.
People who are interested in what other people’s experience outside their own is like. It can be helpful for developing empathy.
First disingenuousness and now condescension. That’s quite a repertoire you’ve put together there. Is that how you empathy?
I guess I need to read more poetry written by old white guys.
She says I, me, and my quite a bit. It’s clear she’s talking about her own experience. She doesn’t, however, say that all old white men are like this. She doesn’t say that everyone experiences what she’s experienced. But she does seem to be saying that it happens often enough to her that she felt it warranted writing a poem about it. The cheers in the crowd during the recitation seem to indicate others might share her experience and perception. She does later generalize about men patronizing and dismissing women, but none of that seems inaccurate from at least my experience of our society.
Again, simply because her experience is not yours does not mean that what she describes doesn’t happen. She never says that it happens all the time, everyday, to every woman, by every old white man. She says that it happens. She doesn’t mention a specific frequency of occurrence though she implies that it happens often enough to be relevant to bring up. You can disagree with her choices all you want, but you can’t accuse her with any amount of intellectual honesty of exaggerating when you don’t know her experience.
Being a poem isn’t necessarily mutually exclusive with being a speech or a talk or a rant, though those are usually written in prose form. The meaning of words evolve. Language is descriptive rather than prescriptive. Commonality of use and understanding determines meaning. It’s possible that a 19th Century poet might not have considered that poetry, but an ancient Greek poet might not consider a 19th Century poet’s works to be poetry either.
That said, prose and speeches are usually written in a formal paragraph style and delivered with an attempt at rendering what is commonly perceived as “proper” speech - e.g. taking definite pause between sentences, with all sentences being complete. Poetry can be said to have a rhythm even if that rhythm is not consistent.
Some stream of consciousness is written in prose form, but it’s often considered poetic prose.
That said, definitions are arbitrary and man-made, so you can call a photograph a poem and be “correct” since you’re using the term poetically to express your feelings for its beauty.
Certainly my personal experience of you is that you go on and on.
egos dancing with each other.
it’s not a dance i like to watch.
Thank god for the “bottom” button. You guys are tedious. Sorry for anyone that had anything constructive to say.
I think every thing she singled out effects women. Not all women, but certainly enough for the cheers.
There’s some things in there that are (or may) be a wider phenomenon, but man, it’s pretty dense and hard to pick apart.
Maybe, and this is a totally crazy idea, we can take the poem at face value for her personal experience. It certainly is believable, based off the women that I know.
“What is Art”?
I think is your larger question.
Certainly I can cite many definitions and examples of poetry that defy traditional definitions. Rhyme needn’t be a part of it, and actually the lack of rhyme or “loose rhyme” is more interesting in a lot of cases because it defies the expectations of the reader/listener at a critical moment.
You’d be shocked to learn that in Japanese their sense of rhyme is fundamentally different than English. There’s stuff that people claim totally rhymes that totally doesn’t rhyme from my position of an English speaker, who also is familiar with concepts like loose rhyme.
In conclusion, poetry from my perspective is what follows a rhythm. Prose doesn’t (necessarily). Some things might not be easily classifiable, mainly because humans like to put things in boxes that don’t fit in boxes.
To be fair, you could interpret it differently. I know I did. I love BoingBoing, so I would assume that the message is intended to be universal to some extent - not for one particular person. If BoingBoing ran an article about “Sam in North Dakota ate a yam and hated it, so all yams are terrible”, I would question why it would be an article. I think the point of the story was that this woman’s poem was an articulation of greater society - not just her reality - i.e. “universal”.
Maybe I should read your response as an opposite - i.e. this is just one woman’s story so don’t draw a larger conclusion about anything. I could be wrong.- Isn’t that wonderful? If we sat in a bar and talked this through in detail, I might even agree with you on some points!
To that greater point - beyond her “slam poem” about #allwhitemen (I hope I got that hash tag thing right), what evidence do we have that all old white men speak over women? Is it all “old” white men, white men, white people, or “people not the same color” that speak over a.) all women, b.) all non-white women, c.) all everybody, or d.) some other combination I missed?
I speak over people all the time - mostly men, rarely women. When you have something interesting or enlightening to say, you get regard (or notice). When you are vapid or obvious, you don’t. That’s regardless of sex.
I still like the poem, but I wish it was not put out as an a case study on why “old white men” suck. It’s just not true.
A little clarity: this poem is a response poem to one written by (white male) slam poet Taylor Mali, called “Like Lilly Like Wilson.” Lozada-Oliva actually heard him speak at her school several years ago, where he performed this piece. He still tours with it, nationally and internationally. Of course, she isn’t only responding to his poem, but it was, indeed, a catalyst. This poem helped her team win the National Poetry Slam last summer. Pretty impressive!
Wow! Thank you for that context - I had no idea.
http://www.taylormali.com/poems-online/like-lilly-like-wilson/
I don’t know what to say now. Is this hypothetical or her real experience? Regardless - poor Taylor Mali - to be such an “old white man” and unworthy of respect.
Maybe think about it as the perspective of a woman who had her speech policed (or people in general who’ve have their speech policed), and how that affected them, worry less about the poor suffering old white men who aren’t guilty of this (and haven’t been categorically blamed), and just see what she had to say about her experience? Ignoring the subject of the poem’s experience (which it’s certainly fair to read more globally) and turning it into a falsely imagined sight against some old white men is completely missing the point. Maybe you are her too if you’ve ever had cretins go sniping at how you speak rather than what you say. That’s interesting. That’s germane. That’s something writers and others face who aren’t her, and aren’t all women (though I’d wager women suffer it more). Worrying about the unfair slights against a few unnamed old guys, that’s so far from the point that bringing it up seems much more like someone dragging in an agenda to sidetrack a discussion into old-white-male-victim culture that has nothing to do with the poem.
I am not sure I totally got what you are saying, but I think you are saying to try and see it through her eyes. I totally do! I am sure that certain things in life seem a certain way to everyone in a similar position. No argument - she thinks “old white men” police her speech. She has every right to that opinion and it might be true for her. No judgement there. Her reality is her reality.
The larger picture is if you believe that to be true to every women like her. I believe that different generations police younger generations speech - not “old white men”. Her reality might be true for her, but I believe (and I will admit I can be wrong) that she is missing the larger picture. It’s older society that polices her speech, not “old white men”. At this point, “old white men” are just an easy scapegoat - because really - who can resist such an easy explanation?
She’s had the experience of people policing her speech. She described the effect this had on her. She called out some old white men as the people policing, and we can’t say she’s wrong, even trying to pointless. The subject of the poem was the experience of having her speech policed, how that took away her voice, what that did to her, what her response was. She talked about that experience a lot, and mentioned the perps once.
Focusing on the fact that in her case some (not all) old white men were involved misses the point. Maybe there are other people than old white men in her life that also contribute to speech policing, maybe not, it’s irrelevant. Dwelling on that is dragging in an agenda. If you look at it from her side you can easily see what policing speech does to people even if you aren’t a woman and even if it’s not an old white man policing speech. If you see if from that perspective then you can potentially learn from her experience and if you’ve been a speech-policing sort see what harm that causes. There’s a lesson and meaning there. There’s no lesson or meaning in dragging in a defense of the honor of old white men as a separate agenda.
The trouble is that this is indistinguishable from a person - a non-trolley - who visits a site, sees a flawed argument, and wishes to point out those flaws for the benefit of the other- presumed like-minded - visitors. The intention is to improve the skills of the group so as to more easily - and more correctly - out-argue those wankers in the unlike minded groups.
On the other hand -
might be a bit of a giveaway.
Everyone,I think things have gotten a little too heated and we’ve deviated from the real point which is that Slam Poetry is goddawful and should disappear.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I infer that you are naïve, rather than confrontationally full of shit.
When you see a comedian doing “white people drive like this, black people drive like this,” do you receive that as the comedian’s own personal experience, or do you get that it’s a broad generalization? It’s disingenuous (at best!) for you to suggest that she’s not making a larger point.
Edit: I think that was directed at @CarlMud but it goes for you also.
“Slam poetry” means spoken word delivered with a particular tedious breathy orthodox mannerism. You’ll notice Rollins and Biafra don’t refer to themselves as poets.
