In the sense that a mosquito is “not exactly” a Concorde jet, yes.
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Huh? That’s nuts. Jefferson arranged the Louisiana Purchase in 1803 and expanded US territory out to what is now Idaho. The Treaty of 1818 established joint occupation (with Britain) of the Oregon Country all the way out to the Pacific. To say that the founding fathers didn’t envision a country that spanned coast-to-coast is not giving them much credit.
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Do you really think US military spending would go down if all of NATO spent at or above the 2% level? Or would it actually go up, because “Hey, France is getting uppity!”
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That is far from a good guess.
I think it should go to a reasonable level. Like NATO average or so by percent of GDP. That is still a bunch more than China and Russia together.
I’ve never thought that over a third of the entire worlds “defense” spending, over half of the national budget, was reasonable.
It’s insane.
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Well, yeah, Canada is probably the only country with even less of a reason for a humongous “defensive” military force than the U.S. … Then again, your neighbour is the U.S. … forget I said anything.
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Discount Shitler wasn’t actually talking to the other NATO heads of state, merely at them while he pandered to the gullible nationalists who elected him. He knows damn well they’re not going to meet the military spending targets because they know damn well the US won’t pull out of NATO and can’t force them out.
This is a man who routinely refused to pay workers, defaulted on loans by declaring bankruptcy six times (or four even if you swallow his horseshit about counting his first three bankruptcies as one). If it was in his interest to thumb his nose at NATO spending obligations, he absolutely would. Since it’s politically advantageous for them to do so, he knows perfectly well that they’re going to and that his showboating is for the voters at home.
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The US that everyone knows and is used to wouldn’t pull out of NATO. Trump might try, though. If I thought he was capable of forming and then executing a strategy, I might think he was laying the groundwork for leaving NATO right now. But I don’t think that. Most of what he seems capable of is flying off the handle.
I don’t know how much ability the president has to abruptly quit NATO. It seems like it should be difficult.
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Trump’s branding himself as a big spender on the military industrial complex. His campaign threats about pulling out of NATO were empty rhetoric. Even if he wanted to, Congress would never let him. In fact it’s the one thing the Republicans probably would stonewall. There’s so much pork in that barrel you could clone an army of Kevin Bacons.
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Whether or not the USA is part of NATO, EU military spending is already more than enough to deal with any possible military threat…except an attack by the US.
The current Russian military represents no realistic threat to Germany/France/Italy/UK. They are not Stalin’s Red Army.
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The term “I could care less” is perfectly cromulent.
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They already left. Sort of. For a bit. Under de Gaulle. Which is why NATO HQ was moved from Paris to Brussels in 1967. Which in turn was the premise for the movie The Brain in 1969.
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Why, this, of course:
Yes, there isn’t that much new under the sun really…
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Nope. Not if you factor in (or, in this case, technically, out) the parts of US military spending that
- have nothing to do with NATO
- have nothing to do with the political goals of the allies
- are first of all pork barrel projects
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So, to summarise:
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The NATO treaty doesn’t say a damned thing about a set level of military expenditure. It just says that everyone should spend an adequate amount.
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In the early days of NATO, US military spending outstripped everyone else. This was because the US was the only one that hadn’t recently had the crap beaten out of it, and because the US wanted to maintain its recently acquired position as the West’s leading military power.
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Over time, the major European nations all redeveloped substantial defence capabilities of their own, able to handle anything short of a full-scale war against the USSR. The US was happy with this at the time.
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After the collapse of the USSR and the end of the Cold War, the military threat to Western Europe sharply reduced. Everyone, including the Americans, reduced their defence spending a little bit. However, the US still maintained defence spending at a level designed to ensure independent global dominance, far in excess of what is actually required of a purely defensive military.
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Around about the time of Bush Jr, a US defence industry reinvigorated by the WoT jackpot started leaning on their pet politicians to pressure the Europeans into joining the spending spree. After much diplomatic nagging and pressure, the rest of NATO eventually agreed to some aspirational, non-binding targets with a relaxed time frame.
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Current EU defence spending is more than sufficient to handle any supposed threat from Russia, without US assistance. This spending is in accord with the NATO treaty, but in many countries has not yet reached the level suggested by the non-binding agreement to raise military spending at some time in the future.
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Trumpy thinks that this gives him the right to demand seventy years worth of protection money from the people of Europe.
I think the real question here is whether this is just a crude shakedown attempt, or whether he’s attempting to create a preemptive excuse for abrogating Article 5 while Vlad snatches the Baltics.
NATO is likely to disintegrate if the US withdraws; I doubt that the major European powers would risk a serious war to save Lithuania etc. while they’re worried about political chaos at home and a new threat from across the Atlantic.
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France and Britain anyway…
Thats an interesting idea that does not line up with any defense analysts I read. After all, its not just how much you spend but how you spend it. At this point it seems only France can actually deploy a reasonable force.
Oh then again theres the issue of incompatible gear but thats not really a budget thing.
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Well, most European countries have no interest in promoting freedom and democracy by force. They are in for defence.
Greece has a GPD of about 200 billion. Germany 3,400, if Google is to be believed.
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Apart from Germans being brought up with a clear abhorrence of war and a commitment to no nukes: What do you think would happen if we’d really go back into the arms game on our own? Building up the army and never, actually ordering weapons that work well beyond the climate range to be found in Germany?
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Theres a whole lot of Europe besides Germany.
I guess people see what they want to see. I didn’t see any grimacing. I saw looking left and right, that was about it. And ‘they could care less’? I have a Weird Al song you should listen to.
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