Yet so many folks seem to think that they would have acted so much better in that moment, had it been them.
Come now let’s be honest; even had they done that, there’s a HUGE contingent of people who would have called them thin-skinned and snowflakes who “can’t take a joke.”
I think that’s what most off putting to me is how many people are preaching about what should have been done, and what they would have done in that situation, thereby signaling their own alleged moral superiority.
I really wish so many people would quit trying to channel John Lennon, and just discuss the present reality at hand.
Thought experiment. It’s a few years ago and Arnie, Clint, Stallone, Connery etc slap a guy who insults his wife - how many people would be excusing if not supporting it?
I think the conversation about violence in general is pretty extreme here. Ultimately this is a long-standing escalating personal embitterment between people that has reached the level of a slap after years and years and years of nonviolent action between the two. I don’t really see how this is an example of violent cultural norms at all when it wasn’t the first move, and it was intended to be shocking and embarrassing and not to cause harm. The idea that this is some shocking use of physical harm is a ridiculous claim when there is clearly not actual physical harm caused or intended.
But violence causes more than physical harm, which was my original point. In fact, I’d argue that the most common types of violence, such as domestic violence, is not intended to maim; but to correct, coerce, shock, and humiliate the victim.
If most of us can agree that Chris Rock’s joke was harmful, whether he intended it to be or not, whether we perceive the emotional pain or not – how do we also comfortably deduce that being slapped is not really harmful because there was no physical harm intended or caused (and in regards to the latter, Rock certainly could’ve been injured by such an attack).
Which is not to say Will Smith belongs in jail or anything. But there’s a lot of broad downplaying of the effects even a “little” violence can have. Even just witnessing violence can cause trauma.
I don’t know… it really seems to me like vonbobo willfully twisted lion’s words to mean something he did not say, and then continued to do so, after a clarification was given several times. If I say something, it’s misinterpreted (willfully or not) and I give clarification, but the other person continues to misinterpret what I say, am I really in the wrong?
I don’t think lion was condoning anything Smith did, merely giving context for WHY it happened - context is not agreement, of course. That hardly seems like an endorsement of violence that some are saying it is…
I saw Lion’s initial statement as an acknowledgement that, in choosing to make the joke, Chris Rock had agency over his own action and owned some degree of responsibility for the consequences.
“They asked for it” and “they kept pushing and pushing” are typically excuses that deny both agency and responsibility to a person who has taken an action.
I’m not seeing how the two positions are equivalent.
(Inserted Quote of post I replied to; got stuck in Draft during Slow Mode.)
Let’s word this another way, if a Forced-Birth Conservative uses “My body My choice” as a slogan for why they are also against wearing masks, is it fair to point out the contradiction? If that same Conservative continues to use that slogan, and refuses to acknowledge the contradiction even after knowing where it came from, is the person pointing that out doing so in bad faith? Should they be prevented from doing so by moderators?
@Lion chose to use an argument that is frequently used by those inflicting pain and distress on others. The fact that this was not what they intended, or that it makes them uncomfortable that this is true, are not reasons to prevent anyone from pointing out these facts. If @Lion would prefer to complain that they are being misinterpreted rather than address that fact, that’s their perogative.
Also, there’s so just so much bullshit here but it’s not about any of the people who were filmed that night really I don’t think. Just the way that internet discourse and media exposure has been going. Two assholes get in a fight that got physical. That’s not good. Shame on them. Shame on all the assholes who ever do that. Shame on lame comedians making shitty low jokes too. Shame on everyone who rushes to protect even the most odious assholism because “waaaaah cannnnncelled.” This is the kind of low effort bullshit humor you get from that, congrats. Jokes so bad it takes a brawl to get a reaction. Shame on me for talking about it too. Shame on the awards so for being so damned archaic. Shame on us all if the various strains of conspiracy theorists are right and it was all staged.
Damn I hate the internet but I also love the internet.
I don’t think that’s at all an apt comparison though, as @lion was not defending Smith but was giving context. I didn’t get the sense that he agreed with his actions, nor did he say that he agreed with his actions, yet that’s what @vonbobo implied. And he continued to imply it after told he misunderstood.
It seems fair to me to point out that Rock’s behavior wasn’t just some one-off, throwaway joke and bordered on 7 years of stalking. What I didn’t appreciate was someone throwing out all the lame rape-apologia as a counter-point. That’s what I found offensive in that exchange.
Smiths behavior is totally indefensible. A bigger man laughs off a joke, no matter how crass, crude or inappropriate. He also completely stole the spotlight from the real heroes: The Williams sisters. Making him that much more of a douche. Will Smith showed what a completely weak and self-absorbed dude he is. And now he’s even more famous. Wish it was for better reasons.
