West Virginia told an atheist to participate in Christian "programming" in prison if he wanted to be eligible for parole. A federal judge told them to stop.

I’m an atheist. I got sober 17 years ago. I did it with the help of AA. I still attend meetings, I’m still an atheist. Is the program perfect? Fuck no. Is its success rate pretty low? Probably. It’s never really been able to be studied in any scientifically rigorous way because of the anonymous aspect of the program. Addiction is a hell of a disease, though. I’m not aware of any treatment program that has a very good, long-term success rate. Relapse is common, regardless of the program.

Is AA a religious program? It can be, but it isn’t inherent in the program, in my experience. The problem is that the organization is completely decentralized. Each individual AA group does its own thing. The only thing the central office really does is publish literature. So…you will find AA groups that stress God and religion more overtly, especially in the Bible Belt and other red states and rural areas. You will find people who say that your Higher Power has to be God/Jesus and groups that always say the Lord’s Prayer at meetings. I try to avoid those groups and I’ve never had trouble doing that. I mostly go to LGBTQ groups, because a lot of us have been harmed by religion or religious people and so that whole aspect tends to be minimized or eliminated entirely.

Some people in these programs can also become overly enamored with them, and believe that they can fix all your problems. These people will tell you to stop taking your anti-anxiety meds, etc., and they can do a lot of damage. These people also don’t know AA’s history very well, because Bill Wilson never said AA could fix everything in your life, and he struggled with depression for all of his, even after he got sober, and he continually sought help for that, with not a lot of great results. He even took part in the early LSD trials.

Lastly, the passage in question in this case comes from chapter 4 of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. That chapter is titled “We Agnostics”. This chapter purports to tell people how they can work the program if they are agnostic or atheist. However, the tl;dr of it is that the solution is to not be agnostic or atheist anymore. It’s one of the worst parts of the book, I hate it every time any part of this chapter is read in a meeting, and the entire chapter needs to be trashed. It is full of really stupid myths and misconceptions of what agnostics and atheists do and don’t believe about the universe. I was going to say it’s the worst part of the book, but To The Wives is arguable worse because holy shit, the misogyny.

Ok, actually this is the last point. Courts and judges have been ordering people to 12 step meetings for a long time. It’s a controversial practice, even within AA. A lot of people in the program do not think judges and courts should be forcing people to go, and I am one of those people. Honestly, if a court wanted to try to confirm that someone (obviously this only applies to someone not currently incarcerated) went to the court ordered meetings, no one would be able to confirm that for the court because the program is anonymous. Hell, a lot of people don’t even use their real names.

I debated whether or not to even comment on this post. I know people have strong feelings about AA, both good and bad, so I want to make it clear that if you had a bad experience with AA, or someone you know did, I am 100% sure that you did. I am not disagreeing with or discrediting anyone else’s experiences, only sharing mine. As I said, it’s definitely not a perfect program.

ETA: Someone mentioned predatory behavior and “13th stepping”. Yeah, that happens. I wish I could say it didn’t, but I can’t. The original 13th stepper was Bill W. himself. In addition to struggling with depression, he also struggled with not hitting on newer women in sobriety. Again, I’ve found this sort of thing happens less at LGBTQ meetings, but it still happens there, too.

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Thank you for posting this, and all healing to you.

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Your experience definitely jives with the summary of the science above. It’s difficult to study, as you say. Most studies that have been done show a benefit to all group therapy programs, religious or otherwise, due to the group therapy part (the religion adds no value, of course). It’s hard to isolate causation though. It could be that people motivated to get better are the ones who go to group therapy and would have gotten better anyway.

Thanks for sharing your experience!

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Griffin v. Coughlin

I once witnessed an obviously hammered priest forget himself during the blessing of the sacramental wine and drink the entire goblet in one long swig before the parishioners got any.

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Talk about Christians and having to work for eligibility.

Brooklyn. Parochial School. Just me, Joe Badamo, Ralph Palma, and James D’Amico (all altar boys) were in class, and with one of the nuns occasionally peeking in on us while pretty much our entire school (all eight classrooms worth) were away at Palisades Amusement Park in New Jersey. Why? Because we decided to not spend time hawking booster coupons to relatives, neighbors and strangers for the privilege of being let out of class for one day. We – far from being programmed – spent the entire day playing strip poker (ties/watches/shoes… all handed back later) and lunching on pizza. Best day ever at St. Mary’s.

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We had Fr. McDermott and Fr. Sepe, and when it came to wine, they were polar opposites to each other. When pouring water and wine into their held chalices, they would signal us on when to stop pouring by quickly lifting their chalices. Sepe was almost 100% water, while Mcdermott was the merest drop of water and the rest wine… and lots of it. He’d whisper, “Keep pouring.” It was Fr. Sepe who got a nearby street corner posthumously named after him, and that at the urging of hundreds of parishioners.

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