One of the two of us is misinterpreting who the black person is supposed to represent in this analogy…
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You are absolutely right, but as you know, this is EXACTLY what happens to people of color (or women) when they become visibly passionate in talking about the wrongs they’ve had to deal with: tone policing comes out in force.
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In this case you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution.
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Excellent, persuasive argument, Humbabella; thank you!
The first paragraph seems to suggest legal restrictions have done or nothing to prevent abortions. How would you counter someone pointing to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_statistics_in_the_United_States to argue they have?
Does it just come down to “I think that’s because of the laws” / “well I think that’s because of increased access to birth control”?
So we can fuel the hate that might be ebbing?
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But almost certainly won’t stand up for you.
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There’s a bunch of stuff that will be essential for the next election (assuming one happens). The good news is that the next candidate will not be Hillary Clinton. The other good news is that the election is almost four years out. The final good news is that the 2016 election was incredibly close and laden with so many massive unique clusterfucks that helped swing things to Trump that whatever the next candidate needs to do will be based not so much on that election, but conditions in 2020. Looking at things now, we have a populace more mobilized and motivated than we have in decades, and that population won the popular vote. As a result, premature optimizations of a nonexistent candidate doing the kind of outreach to the right and alienating a highly motivated base are not something we currently need to worry about, and ideally won’t be attempted in the future.
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My blood ran cold when I read what one supporter had to say when interviewed during the Melbourne, FL rally:
“America was going down the tubes,” said Bill Moro, a raspy-voiced and stubbly 50-something who voted for the first time ever for Trump. “They said our constitution was unconstitutional. That’s what Obama said. And Clinton.”
“[Trump] needs to drain the swamp of judges, too,” he said. “I don’t care what he does. I’m behind him 100 percent. Put it this way: If he became a dictator, and they said, ‘We want him in forever,’ he’s my man. He’s in. I’ll never vote against him … I love his power … It’s the power that does something to me.”
I recognize this person’s right to basic human and civil rights. But no, I’m not going to drop my guard around him, ever.
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Abortion rates have fallen across the nation, both in areas with tight restrictions and those with fewer restrictions. In additon, the birth rates have also fallen. Fewer women are finding themselves with unwanted pregnancies that might result in abortion. If the deterrent laws were actually the driving force in the decrease in abortion numbers, one would expect to see spikes in births, particularly in places that attempt to restrict access to abortion.
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First, I’d probably point out that Canada, which has literally zero legal restrictions on abortion, period, has very similar rates. That’s the number one reason I think criminal laws against abortion are about as useful as criminal laws against alcohol (except instead of the fallout being the rise of organized crime, it’s the death and maiming of women).
Next, that’s not a table of abortion statistics, it is a table of reported abortions statistics. Even if we believe laws do have an impact, it should be obvious that they’ll have a bigger impact on reported abortions than on actual ones (unless someone outright denies that any “black market” for abortions exists or would exist, despite abortions having been procured, often in a discreet way, since pre-history).
Also, before I managed to respond, @Sagoli makes a good point about the falling rates not being mapped to states where restrictive laws have come in.
I think the point you raise - that we can’t really guess at causes from stats like that - is an important one as well. I wouldn’t say, “I think it’s because of birth control” I’d actually say, “There’s no way we know why that’s happening.” If someone wants to argue that a particular cause is a dominant or even a noticeable factor, they need evidence to back that up, the burden of proof isn’t on me.
They would want to say the burden of proof is on me because they can explain a logical connection (less people will do something when it’s criminal) but I don’t think that logical connection actually holds up. There are a huge number of complicated factors that go into compliance with laws. Generally, if you want to change behaviour, public education campaigns are more effective than laws. Drunk driving has been in crime in Canada since the 1920s but people didn’t really cut back on doing it until the awareness campaigns of the 1980s. Not that I can imagine what a leaflet could say about abortion to get people to change their minds. If people who valued human life were running a nationwide charity that had people who helped new mothers adjust to parenting, who supplemented income and who provided accessible and affordable childcare for nearly everyone, then you should share information about that organization and some women who want abortions out of desperation probably would actually change their minds.
I have two kids. I would say nothing else in my life has had as substantial an impact on me as having them. If there was a law that said I had to have them or not have them, I’d be as likely to factor that into my decisions as a law saying I had to cut my legs off. Honestly, my life would be less impacted by being legless than it is be having kids. I have a friend in a wheelchair from an accident as an adult who has a daughter who I’ll double check that with them, but I’m very confident I already know the answer.
The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.
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Thanks for your response, nojaboja, and for sharing your background; I can only imagine that Brexit and the feelings and actions (and laws) unleashed by its passage has you on-edge. I sincerely wish you well.
Back when its potential was still untapped, I had high hopes that the internet would allow for people like you and me, from very different experiences, to have exchanges like this one. And, it does happen. Unfortunately, too many have retreated into their tribes, and we’re seeing the terrible results of the xenophobic online echo chambers. As you say, we have to stay vigilant and resist hatred and ignorance where we can.
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Indubitably!
Interesting inquiry by the blue shoes YC dude…Y Combinator makes SHITLOADS of money via venture capitol directed at “start-ups” - They invest in them and train them; for a price! Venture capitol is just one of the ways Donald Trump has made significant amounts of money.
Y Combinator’s bottom line? Scaling a startup into a high growth business, from which Y Combinator creates wealth for itself. Y Combinator does not employ any organized labor. As for Silicon Valley, the tech companies are bailing from Califrownia quicker than Brown’s clan can force businesses to raise the minimum wage.
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Nothing.
Most people are disengaged from the political process.
Every four years, they’ll summon up a little interest, decide if they feel threatened and maybe vote. After a pretty successful few decades of social progress, the innately conservative who dislike change felt slightly more threatened and those who felt a little more comfortable felt slightly less, and that was enough to tip the balance.
In four years, it’s pretty likely that the balance will tip back.
Unless, those who voted for him feel that they are so personally under attack that a few percent more will bother to vote for his re-election (if he survives in office that long).
Welcome to democracy :-). The vast, vast majority care a lot less than any of us.
So, my take is oppose the policies and don’t refer to the voters at all. Don’t call them evil, stupid or malevolent. Don’t hate them. Don’t spend your time worrying about them. Don’t call them anything at all.
After all, in 4 years, they’ll spend another half an hour making choice, and I’d prefer not to have part of their choice be affected by the knowledge that a significant part of the country has a vitriolic hatred of them based on the a snap decision they made 4 years earlier.
For almost everyone, politics is just not that big a deal. A fact that drives me nuts, but is pretty fundamental to life in a prosperous democracy.
Anyway, most of the battles in my life have been won not by triumphing over the enemy, but simply consistently going after a goal without ever giving the opposition enough emotional ammunition to make it worthwhile for them to stay in the game. Eventually they lose interest and wander away. No celebrations, no victory parties. Just things slowly getting better with some occasional back-sliding.
Not at all emotionally satisfying. But progress over years and decades.
Anyway, I’ve only faced Trump-super-lite (aka former mayor Rob Ford), so obviously things are far iffier south of the border. But that’s how I (a safe member of the urban elite) approached the numerous Ford supporters and how I’d hope I’d have the strength to face the Trump situation. (I knew not a one Trump fan, not even among the Canadian right-wingers I fraternize with…)
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I’d prefer they have a better understanding of how severely their uninformed snap decisions affect other people so that they maybe stop making uninformed snap decisions every 4 years. Ignoring those people does nothing to address that problem.
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I think it’s more complicated than that. This is anecdotal so of course season to taste, but I find that if I talk to people who’d describe themselves as “disengaged”–that is, they don’t really follow politics until there’s an election coming up–about a specific issue they’re very engaged.
I’ve asked some of those who voted for Trump specifically about his attitudes toward Muslims and LGBT people and I’ve gotten variations of one of two responses:
“Well I disagree with him on that, but…” followed by something about jobs, the need to repeal the ACA, the economy, etc.
“Well those people have too many special rights already and we need to defend ourselves!”
Although admittedly I guess “disengaged” and “uninformed” are pretty synonymous.
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You honestly think you can make people care? You’d have a better chance making me care about which team I support in Basketball. I can’t make them become engaged in my direction. But I can make them engaged against me.
Because the only way you can “address the problem” directly is to make the situation worse. Berating people about a position makes their position stronger. Yelling facts at them does the same. I think there was a posting about how hard it is to tackle anti-vaxxers.
Ideologically, they aren’t suddenly going to become Liberals. What I care about is not what they care about.
And fair enough - we’re different people, and that’s why we have democracy.
All one can do is make our side less threatening. Since giving up policies is a non-starter, and giving up attacking the awful policies isn’t going to happen, then giving up the hate that makes them feel under attack is the best I can do.
And yes, one man’s choice is pretty small potatoes. But in the end, I have to decide which is more important: my hatred of people who don’t think like me or my desire to see life improve for others.
(Well, at least if they’re privileged enough to live in Canada - I’m absolutely selfish enough to be glad that I don’t the option to vote on something like truly open borders that would help perhaps a hundred million at the cost of shredding the culture that I value.)
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I can see what you’re trying to say here - don’t get caught up in the noise, but work to change the signal. I get that and agree it’s important. But I also see no reason to not oppose stuff like this - publicly and vocally:
Part of our modern political system (and this goes back to Habermas, yeah - public sphere theory) isn’t just voting or working within the party system (going door to door, phone banking, etc), but it’s engaging in public discourse with others. I’m not sure that just ignoring rhetoric like this helps us to steer the country away from this brink of really serious violence. You may not see it or feel it, but lots of people do and they deserve to hear that we support them, care about their well being, and want them to feel safe in this country. If those who enact legislation do not hear us BETWEEN elections, then they won’t know that we oppose such dangerous views.
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