Because we’ve heard this argument over and over again, and the multitude of answers as to why it’s a bogus argument. Why are you so important that we need to go back to the beginnng just so you feel comfortable with where we’ve gotten to?
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Yeah, there is, because our listening and understanding gives us the conclusion that they are primarily motivated by harming the people and things we care about. Please read what the other posters have said.
For instance, I’ve already noted that your fact there are millions of his supporters doesn’t actually say much positive about them, not in a country where racial segregation received wide support in the last generation. That was not repealed by desperately trying to court the dedicated segregationists, but by fighting them; and yet it seems many people are very dedicated to forgetting this lesson.
ETA:
Stay angry at them so long as they keep trying to hurt people, because we should be divided on that. Don’t ignore them, but do work around them. The one positive I’ve seen from the Trump presidency is that for the first time I can remember, it has been made entirely clear that they genuinely do not represent America. We can build on that instead of folding. Lots of people depend on it.
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There is no solution, because they cannot be reasoned with or bargained with. What they want is nothing less than the normalization and acceptance of racism, misogyny and xenophobia, and they haven’t changed that demand. This very article quotes them saying as much. Explain to me what could possibly soften their stance, which isn’t coming from a place of logic or reason, but blind hatred. I hate them too, I admit it, but I hate them because of something they actually did. They hate immigrants, women and minorities for reasons based on lies, religion or just because it makes them feel more powerful.
As much as I’d like to humanize these people, their actions were and continue to be evil and unacceptable. Whether or not I hate them or forgive them doesn’t really matter- what matters is that they need to change their entire worldview just to reach a level where compromise is even possible, because treating everyone who isn’t a white male Christian like shit is NOT AN OPTION.
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That was exactly what was supposed to have happened in 2004. Dubya’s supporters were supposed to have come to their senses and rejected him. Didn’t happen though. No matter how bad things got, he was still the Republican nominee and a lot of people simply define themselves by party and would never think of voting outside it.
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Yeah, I get the feeling that anyone who tries to tell a Trump supporter he/she is wrong is seen as talking down, a la “you think yer smarter than me, huh?!”
And there isn’t any way to engage many of them because once you point out some defect of Trump’s you’re seen as suspect.
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After marching and rallying against the first iteration of the travel ban, on the way back to the car we ran into a couple of guys who asked what it was about. The gist of it was:
“Why are you against it?”
“Immigrants tend to commit much less crime than native born US citizens, including terrorism. Instead they tend to be entrepreneurs and good citizens. We’re all the children and grandchildren of immigrants ourselves. And right now the ban is keeping doctors and scientists out and separating families…”
“So you’d let everybody in?”
“There’s already an extensive vetting process, it usually takes two years…”
“…well, I think he just wants to keep the bad people out.”
At that point my spouse said something about Trump being one of the bad people (which is patently true) and we lost them completely, but it’s not like we were going to win using reason anyway. They have their stupid poison Skittles metaphor and that’s enough for them.
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You go see your therapist for getting tied up in knots over not wanting to blame those who willingingly, and in most cases, knowingly put us all in harms way. The rest of us will call them what they are…idiotic, willing thralls who shouldn’t be allowed to decide where to cross the street much less who should have the most power in the history of Earth.
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What are we supposed to understand?
I read the article and found that a lot of what they accuse liberals of are in fact things the right has been doing for years, example : " I think the inability to acknowledge obvious truths, and the ever-increasing scope of these restrictions makes it particularly frustrating. And … I find inability to have more subtle discussion very frustrating–things are not white or black, but you can’t talk about greys since the politically correct answer is white.”
Is there any kind of grey area in the abortion debate? Does climate change count as an “obvious truth”?
And this: “the mainstream left has resorted to name-calling and character assassination, instead of debate, any time their positions are questioned.”
This is exactly what Rush Limbaugh and a host of talk radio guys do all day. “Libtard” and “feminazi” anyone? I will grant that calling someone racist or Nazi at the drop of a hat is counterproductive and maybe unfair, but that is the least of the issues here.
“Give us a better option, and we’ll be happy. But it needs to be a moderate—Sanders won’t win.”
So Trump is a moderate?
I’m pretty sure I do understand them, they were gullible and foolish and now want us to shut up and/or forgive them. I can do that, but not if they keep doubling down on the same foolish mistake.
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Not the Democrats, that’s for sure! They’re too busy trying not to offend their donor base.
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Apparently, on whatever insane scale they’re using to measure moderate-ness, Trump is closer to the middle than Hillary.
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They want someone like Jim Webb, perhaps, so everyone can be equally unhappy.
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I appreciate most of the points in your well-stated comment, but it misses the same point (for the same reason) that the TGOP misses: we must keep our rich in check. Clinton wouldn’t say it. Trump is the poster brat for why we must say it. But no one says what is obvious: Clinton was one attempt by the wealthy at marketing, to the people, rule by a tiny minority of wealthy thieves. Trump was another.
Financing of politics and media has been taken over by the worst thieves living now on the planet. Pointing this out as the primary problem isn’t a meme that’s allowed to thrive, so it doesn’t get repeated as much as it might. Imagine if SNL was allowed to say it. John Oliver gets closer, occasionally. On HBO. And not if Trump is dropping another public deuce about anything-but-wealth.
The social justice movement is vitally important but I’m not sure whether the backers of Breitbart and other bigot media care much about rolling it back. I think they just want to keep people divided. They’re rich thieves and rule through diversion of attention away from their thieving. So the stupid, murderous greed of the rich is overshadowed by fey and sarcastic fascists. No matter how ridiculous, the newly powerful bigot faction hired into the Administration is doing its job.
Talking about wealth was always the endpoint of social justice. MLK got there. Ta-Nehisi Coates laid it out when talking about reparations. Feminist labor issues come down to the same thing.
Slavery and rape is about theft of bodies. Colonization is about the same, adding theft of land, and rebranded. Neoliberal austerity is another rebranding of the theft of knowledge, experience, franchise, and resources of the people in every country it’s practiced in. We forget that these issues are connected at their heart.
Reactionary bigotry is weird and horrible (and deplorable) but at its core bigotry is a marketing strategy. Bigotry is a psychologically *crafted bait-and-switch. If we decry the evil of the bait, we must also talk about the underlying switch.
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If you want to take advice from a libertarian billionaire recommending we overturn Roe v. Wade, protect white culture, and attack immigrants to appeal to the people he was chatting with, to theoretically defeat Trump in four years, that’s your business. I think the Dems would do better to fight that than go along with it and take yet another shift to the right, and I’m willing to accept that the Dems will never win over that minority of extremist voters, since Altman’s agenda is to alienate literally every demographic the Dems need to turn out on Election Day. Altman’s advice is political suicide that hands Trump eight years. There are other ways to win besides courting people there’s no chance of winnng without fatal compromises.
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Here, here. Hear, hear.
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If only. 
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I consider…[quote=“Footface, post:79, topic:95529”]
know you’re making a decision based on stupid criteria, how can you go ahead with it?
[/quote]
…a valid lifestyle choice.
But I would never vote for an asshat like that guy.
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I get what you’re saying here, but what does, “…ways to build bridges with people…” look like? As much as I can go for a righteous indignant rant as the next guy I’d like to solve this problem. Now if that means “forgiveness” I’m all for it…but…
Frankly all I want to do is see less income inequality - for everyone, see a reasonable healthcare program - for everyone, see a high functioning education system - for everyone, see clean air, water, etc - for everyone, see human rights - for everyone. I don’t care if they’re Republican, Democrat, male, female, white, black, or whatever. The problem is that these people really don’t want the same things. They want theirs and (certain) others to get none. How do we build a bridge to that?
I say all this without an ounce of snark. This is the preeminent psychological problem of humanity. How do we curtail the arguably “evil” proclivities of the human psyche? I wish I knew, but having an attitude of, “Oh that’s ok, better luck next time,” doesn’t seem like it’s an effective strategy either. I do know that me saying, “Fuck you,” a million times hasn’t helped so far so I’m open to anyone else’s best shot here.
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The conservatives were traumatized by the counter culture of the 60s and have been fighting it ever sense even though everybody moved on. While a it does to a degree mean “White culture” it also means some “Leave it to Beaver” ideal that never really existed and defiantly can’t exist in this kleptocratic direction we are going in.
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None of which is relevant to the perspective of the people who need to be encouraged to abandon trump. You keep seeing it from your perspective, not theirs.
Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories.
— Sun Tzu
My response to that shirt: Trump 2016: Sucker.
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