Why (or why not) to vote for Bernie Sanders

Representative democracy will become the new black worldwide. We’ll finally become more respected and trusted around the world again — instead of increasingly feared and despised.

Just look at the influence worldwide after decriminalizing marijuana here in CO, for example:

A Sanders administration will help us to become a world leader that exports freedom by example instead of imperialism by the tip of the sword that leads to decades of blowback (ISIS, for example) and less safety here at home and abroad.

Bernie Sanders is labeled as such here in the United States to this day. We’re just not allowing those scumbags to chose the narratives for us anymore.

[quote=“Kimmo, post:126, topic:59394”]
What makes you think the secret service is above influence?
[/quote]Again, there’s a lot of right wing nuts that are terroristic in the USA. They most certainly would pay to harm Obama, etc. if they could. Many of these people literally think Obama is the anti-Christ, etc. — If the secret service was that inept or easily paid off to arrange a hit on the president, there would have been an assassination on Obama by now.

And, frankly, none of us should allow cowardly fear to stop us anyway. They kill Sanders, he’ll be martyred and many others will step up in his place to carry on the fight with more passion and determination than our adversaries can ever handle.


They think the surge for Sanders’ policies is intense now? Try martyring him and watch what happens.

I’m more concerned about the competence of whoever fat cats hire

If some corporatists got together to arrange such a thing they’d be destroyed very quickly. This isn’t the 1960’s. Today, there are many watchful eyes and listening ears trained upon the powerful and their lackeys. The NSA isn’t the only entity with access to private communications in this world. There are grassroots hacktivists that have access. Where do you think all those leaks keep coming from? Moles from the inside and hackers from the outside.

Corporatists are too self-serving to perform such risky, even suicidal acts. No one loves their own lives more than the corporatists do and they certainly aren’t the sacrificial type by any stretch. They know they’re being watched and they know the consequences of trying to arrange physical harm towards Sanders would be returned in kind and then some.

It’s better to take a cut in already ridiculous wealth than risk it all and perhaps only end up with a glorified martyr in the process that instills a passionate “response”.


In other news…

[Wil Wheaton][1] stepping up for Bernie Sanders:

And, of course, Sanders kicks ass on climate solutions:

[1]: http://boingboing.net/2014/12/19/a-conversation-with-wil-wheato.html


But the people who would like to take Obama out are not “deep state”, he’s been very good to them.


As Cornel West notes, seems like the only thing we can’t count on him for is taking Israel to task.

I’ll take that deal; that’s like 19/20 or better.


Just listened, inspiring stuff. Did you see his interview with Katie Couric?:


Also… feel free to come on over… Despite the BS politics and our vocal, batshit minority, we’re actually a friendly, welcoming people. I like to think that we’re much weirder/cooler than people can see from our mainstream culture.


[quote=“Kimmo, post:131, topic:59394”]
As Cornel West notes, seems like the only thing we can’t count on him for is taking Israel to task.[/quote]

I respect West, however Sanders has a record of being pro-Palestine:

Rated +2 by AAI, indicating pro-Arab pro-Palestine voting record.


Maybe that’s not enough by West’s perhaps unrealistic expectations for a relevant US politician running for president, but I don’t see signs that Sanders won’t take Israel to task in the future.

I’ll take that deal; that’s like 19/20 or better.

Agreed, and let’s face it, if Sanders was considered “too tough” on Israel, there’d be no hope of a lot of conservative-leaning voters choosing him. Frankly, I think we need a dire focus on domestic issues and we need to begin very serious nation-building within the United States.

Is This Detroit? Or Is This a War Zone?

Considering Sanders’ voting record which seems fairly pro-Palestine and nothing radical in the other direction, I’m not overly concerned about this specific issue compared to his overall agendas. If West thinks Sanders should and could do better while still remaining a relevant candidate instead of an insipid protest candidate, I’d like to hear his suggestions.

I’m not worried about it for all the reasons I’ve stated in my post you were responding to. It’s better to take a hit in their already ridiculous wealth than make a martyr out of a capitalist/socialist hybrid like Sanders and having his base be out for blood and demanding the actual radical change they really deserve.

The corporatists will continue to do everything in their power to keep him from getting elected. Afterwards, they’re going to attempt (and fail) to try and stop people from voting in the next midterms, etc. to neuter his agendas. – When that fails, they’re just going to have to live with 2 mega-yachts instead of 5.

This kind of shit won’t fly nowadays:

Also, they must keep in mind that if they get into the business of killing our leaders, others may start getting into the business of killing them and/or their lackey politicians. They value their own lavish lives and lifestyles too much to risk that scenario. Radicalizing average Americans would not go well for them unless they plan on hiding in bunkers for the rest of their miserable lives. It’s one thing to have stupid rightwing hicks against you, it’s quite another to have a bunch of intelligent, educated folks dedicated towards plotting your demise for the sake of their country.


I’m sure some bubbe will klap him on the kop with her handbag if he gets out of line on Israel.

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I know in the case of the Isreali-Palestinian conflict, we’re not going to get perfect, but we need some real movement on this issue. We need to stop sending all military aid to Israel until they stop building settlements in the West Bank, and begin negotiating with the PA in GOOD FAITH, something the current government has not done. I think that’s a bare minimum. Here is where he stands on related issues:

S. Res. 138: (-) calling on the United Nations to rescind the Goldstone report, formally known as the UN Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, which accused the Israeli government of targeting Palestinian civilians. S. Con. Res. 23: (-) supporting Israel in maintaining defensible borders, and against Israel returning to the armistice lines that existed on June 4, 1967

So, he might pass the bare minimum requuirement for me on this issue (he voted no on both). This is an issue that isn’t going to go away, and where the US can indeed have a material effect on the ground, if we had the political will to do so.


I think it’s safe to say that Bernie Sanders is evolving on Israel:


Sanders was the very first U.S. senator and presidential candidate take a position against the Netanyahu speech. I guess after many other Democrats saw which way the wind was blowing, they followed Sanders’ lead. Well, except Hillary Clinton who remained quite mum on the topic.

I think this supports the premise that Sanders is likely to continue to take Israel to task in the future and let’s face it, Hillary will be almost as bad as many other moderate Republicans are.

Now, before progressives start hounding Sanders and doing our classic, divisive, leftist, self-destructive nitpicking that often benefits and strengthens the Republican party and corporatist Democrats along with all of their agendas we progressives despise:

I think it’s wise to compare Sanders against his challenger Hillary Clinton:

Hillary Clinton Tells Israeli Billionaire and Mega-Donor She Will Support Israel, Fight Palestinian Movement



Hillary Clinton Writes Letter To ‘Fight Back’ Against Palestinian BDS Movement

“Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton has declared her opposition to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanction movement (BDS), dedicated to putting economic pressure on Israel, in a letter to Clinton donor and pro-Israel billionaire Haim Saban.”

Um, yeah. Sanders may not be our pipe dream, but let’s get real here. He is, by far, our best bet.

I’m not even going to bother mentioning Republicans on this issue.

This is an issue that isn’t going to go away, and where the US can indeed have a material effect on the ground, if we had the political will to do so.

I agree with you that the USA should shun Israel’s rightwing aggression. However, I currently am vastly more concerned with our collapsing American cities than further Middle East meddling that almost always seems to exacerbate the situation over there and waste valuable time and resources we desperately need to focus on here.

I mean, look at these photos:

Is This Detroit? Or Is This a War Zone? (Looks somewhat like Palestine to me)

America has gone to shit. I think the best thing we can do as a nation is devote vastly more time and resources nation-building our own country and stop meddling near as much with other countries.

I mean, I get it… Sanders should stand stern against rightwing Israeli aggression, but we’ve also got an absolute American domestic disaster on our hands that we DESPERATELY need to prioritize. Our domestic situation has languished incredibly too long. This is a national embarrassment and travesty of epic proportions.

I mean, look at these charts:


Holy living FUCK.




Saw this today on Twitter…


Don’t get me wrong, I totally agree that we need to concentrate on our internal problems. But we’re still the worlds hegemonic military and economic power, and that needs a focus too. Shifting on this particular issue would do more to boost our standing globally, especially with regards to the "war on terror"™.

So yes, I think this matters a good bit.

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Agreed, but the thing is — Sanders’ record clearly shows he’s anti-war and not in the pocket of the military-industrial complex that wants more war and aggression that leads to more wars. He’s consistently gone up against the political establishment (including Obama) in this regard.

There’s just no one else who is (legitimately) running that can even touch Sanders on this issue. Certainly not Hillary is who yet another Democratic warhawk. If progressives are to finally have someone in executive office who is a Commander in Chief that actually responds to us, it’s about time we start supporting a candidate like Sanders instead of tearing him down before he’s even elected.

A self-destructive lack of solidarity has been the biggest enemy of progressives, not the Republicans.


Yes. And even & especially in Vermont, where he has not been able to brand anyone else remotely similar. If you go back a ways, Anthony Pollina and Bernie have worked together, I would characterize as loosely at best over the years. There are and have been no other Progressives similar to Bernie. Closest was consumer advocate Ralph Nader, but even so not the same record of statesmanship to go on, and a different I’d dare say weirder brand with the whole Green thing. Not that I’m against green things. I like them, generally. But they are typically bland like eating a pile of leaves. Cows would like them more than people do. Progressives just haven’t figured out how to coalesce. One would think Progressive rage at the status quo would be enough to cause them to cohere, but instead it tends to make them decohere. Maybe this time it will be different when they realize they have a shot, finally, with Bernie? I dunno. We’ll have to give it the good old college try.


Sanders’ campaign has been confirming what a lot of people (like yourself, @Mindysan33, @Kimmo, etc.) have surmised for a long time – the Democratic party (as a whole) is at least partially in cahoots with the Republicans. They may not be different sides of the exact, same coin, but they’re certainly coins deposited into the same corporatist bank.

It’s very telling how so many establishment Democratic Senators have announced their support for Clinton while not a single one has put support behind Sanders.

Hillary Clinton was literally a part of the Obama administration as Secretary of State and is yet another establishment Democrat that failed American progressives on many issues.

That’s why we’re seeing a lot of establishment support for Clinton via old and tired Democratic Senators while dynamic, grassroots organizations are overwhelmingly aligning with and supporting Bernie Sanders in droves.

Unlike Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders has a solid record of being painfully critical of the Democratic party and Obama on many of the policies and issues critical to progressives.

Sanders is an Independent running against an establishment Democrat as a reformist Democratic candidate. The upcoming debates (that Hillary is dreading and even desperately attempting to avoid) will clearly show Hillary as a pandering flip-flopper while Sanders will be seen as the steadfast progressive he’s been for decades.

Hillary’s artful dodging, flip-flopping and pandering as her campaign drolls on is going to increasingly remind progressives of Obama’s failed promises. Meanwhile, when anyone asks Sanders about the issues, he and his supporters will continue to point out his solid, past record that consistently backs him up for decades on end.

This is why as time and name recognition has gone on, Sanders has continued to make gains while Hillary has continued to lose her grip with progressives.

Sanders is similar to a single payer system for health care. The more Americans find out about him and how he actually works, the more they support him.

I think these campaigns are clearly showing us who is bought and sold… and by whom.

This is a historic battle for America’s soul. Who will win? Astroturfers, the establishment status quo and corporatist lackeys that are launching disingenuous campaigns to enable the rich to get richer or a true, word-of-mouth (offline and online), grassroots campaign that’s supported by the people and for the people?

This may sound overdramatic to some, but I think this may be one of the last chances for the American public to keep from losing what’s left of our dwindling representative democracy within our struggling republic. We need to use it or we’re going to lose it.

If Hillary Clinton wins, it will be a win for an aristocracy that clearly paid her off to maintain their already entrenched status quo. Meanwhile, it will be a tragic loss for the American public who wants more representation, upward mobility and less fleecing from a quasi-governmental, quid pro quo system that resembles corporate communism.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m pro-business and a capitalist (mostly) that wants free enterprise that symbiotically benefits individuals and the communities they work in. However, there’s no freedom of enterprise when monolithic oligopolies and monopolies are able to pull the strings against innovation, upward mobility and small business growth with the flick of a corrupt, quid pro quo, quasi-governmental lobbying complex.

The fight of our lifetimes is ON.


I think it’s lazy to say that we’ve all become accustomed to it, but it’s important to recognize that most people have.

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But we have - it’s inescapable. I remember a time when the scumbags unfolding their neoliberal agenda would surprise me with their heinous corruption, and I’d be no less surprised by the ability of the brain-dead populace to lap that shit up.

But after a while, surprise at the scumbags just settled into resigned loathing, and surprise at the fuckwit populace dwindled into mere puzzlement.

Then I read The Authoritarians, and realised that’s it, we’re fucked. A critical mass of stupidity has been reached.

Thankfully, my grasp of the scumbags’ avarice was insufficient to predict they might actually be short-sighted enough to go too far too soon for people to continue to tolerate it (AFAIK that’s only the case in the US)… let’s hope those cunts have blown it.

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The only thing I think is inescapable is reality. Whatever fallacies people like to use to hide from it will die with them. The way I see it, it doesn’t matter how many such people there may be, they will by their nature not be effective people - except within their own corrupt sphere of influence (effluence?).

Maybe we can make a virus that induces the next generation to be born insusceptible to cognitive biases. A big project, but It beats working towards our own slavery.


I’m not in Europe, but I am keeping an eye on it. A reservedly hopeful one, inspired by a large percentage of the Greek populace. “We will not keep eating your shit forever!” is a message many are hearing, no matter how much Merkel, Inc. tries to muffle it.