Why (or why not) to vote for Bernie Sanders

The record for capitalism is not good. Pretty much all the progress we’ve made in equality and democracy doesn’t come from the monied elite, but from below. While some of those have been small business owners, they are often going with the tide of social unrest for more equality because it’s a financial benefit. The opposite was often also true, where some small business owners fought against things like integration, even when it would have been an economic boon for them.

Go read the chapter on civil rights and consumerism by Lizabeth Cohen, no pro-socialist by any stretch of the imagination:

Then go read up on the unleashed id of neo-liberalism via Naomi Klein to get a sense of how lives were destroyed in the wake of the fall of the soviet union:

http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine

Both capitalist and communist countries during the Cold War did some shitty things that destroyed lives. To not understand that, is to dismiss actual history altogether. You’re the only one here making it about capitalism vs. communism. The real struggle has always been the people vs. large-scale institutions, run by people out for their own interests. That’s history.

26 Likes
12 Likes

I wonder how often historians are told they don’t understand history by economists.

21 Likes

You’re among friends here. There’s no need to come on so strong.

Why I’m happy to stay out let y’all take this dork’s yammering. Later after happy hour, the story might turn a bit.

5 Likes

I’m thinking that our new pal Gary is not a marxist.

7 Likes

Sorry about that. I was more interested in the idea posited that you might actually be some sort of advanced AI. Since you are human, and the Free Market drivel you espouse isn’t really my cup of tea, I’ll just bow out of the conversation at this point.

4 Likes

Clinton is going to win the popular vote (partly helped because she’s won primaries and lost caucuses) and probably the pledged delegates - but looking at the trajectory of who is the more popular candidate nationally, she could easily be behind Sanders in terms of who people prefer by the time of the convention.

She might not be, too - but if she is - what then?

The people will have had their say, but what if they’ve changed their minds during a long primary season? Might be that Clinton benefitted from Sanders’ relatively low profile at the start of the campaign and her smart move to encourage early voting.

4 Likes

This seems relevant:

They Don’t Just Hide Their Money. Economist Says Most of Billionaire Wealth is Unearned.

7 Likes

It’s happening somewhere RIGHT NOW I promise!

11 Likes

It’s probably at about the same rate that everyone is told they don’t understanding anything by engineers!

13 Likes

Ain’t that the truth! (sorry… out of likes for the day!)

8 Likes

Good input, thanks. Bernie Sanders wants to lead us towards large government programs paid for by raising taxes, my experience has been when ever I have to deal with the government be prepared for disappointment and frustration.

:cocktail::cocktail::cocktail::cocktail::cocktail::cocktail::cocktail::cocktail:

2 Likes

I know, right. Take the Expansion of Civil Rights - what’s really in that for me?

22 Likes

Ever try a dispute with a corporation?

At least we can organize democratically to control the government.

We have almost no democratic control over corporations.

19 Likes

That’s only been my experience when government services have been severely defunded by Republicans (who then turn around and blame government itself for not working well).

21 Likes

I think he wants to raise taxes on the wealthy bankers, and other business elites; us middle/low class folks are safe.

10 Likes

I actually have no problem paying taxes when I get services out of it. A system like in North Western Europe would actually provide value for our dollar. If we have less coming out of our pockets in terms of health care (which, you have to admit, under the current, for profit system, is out of control and bankrupting people left and right - except for the fact that our right to declare bankruptcy has been seriously curtailed, so it’s just ruining people), transportation, education, etc, we’ll likely make up whatever they take out of our paychecks to pay for these services.

Part of the problem with our current system is the hybrid nature of the thing. If you’ve experienced frustration, it’s because we underfund government programs and underpay and undertrain the people who provide them. I don’t know what state you’re in, but you’d likely see a big difference in government services in the red south vs the bluer north. Likewise, I and I think just about anyone else here, yourself included, can think of moments of frustration with private bureaucracies, too. Large scale institutions almost always have these Kafka-esque problems because they are less responsive. I’d argue that government programs have became vastly less responsive in the past 20-30, perhaps 40 years.

Your argument on government services also falls flat when European (or Canada) examples are taken into consideration. A friend of mine, who is French, very nearly flew home recently in order to get some dental work done because the cost of the trip and the work at home, would have been cheaper than getting it done here. She found a work around, but she almost did that. Wrap your head around that for a moment.

And then there is this.

22 Likes

Very much so.

The “let’s subsidise private health insurance and make it virtually compulsory, but regulate it a bit to soften the innate scummyness of for-profit healthcare” approach of Romneycare/Obamacare, if it were to be proposed in Australia or the UK, would be decried as a right-wing plot to destroy the public healthcare system through parasitic privatisation. Costs would soar, service would decrease (except at the very top of the market).

14 Likes

Well, I am disappointed and frustrated with you, so maybe I should cut your budget. And put somebody in charge of you who will manage you badly. Is that likely to make us both happier?

4 Likes