Zinke with worst Trump-era stupid justification yet


#41

Canadians don’t need them. We learn our history through books.


#42

I had heard his basic strategy referred to as ‘Hell I got another 10,000 men’


#43

Whither Canada? At least we seem to have reached an accommodation on statues of Louis Riel, a loser, traitor and hanged for his crime. And I think the inhabitants of Lloydtown would put up a fight if someone wanted to take down Jesse Lloyd’s statue, even though the Upper Canada Rebellion failed and he died in exile.

Meanwhile, we’re re-examining statues of key historical winners who were actually genocidal scumbags.

It’s not as easy as losers and winners, but also “his cause being just and his quarrel honorable”. Under that, the Confederate statues can go, and leave Jesse alone because he was right about the corrupt Family Compact.


#44

Drunk Ulysses S Grant is a trope we could probably do without.

“On the whole, Grant was a decent, honorable man who has been the victim of rumor mongers and writers who irresponsibly perpetuate the myth that all Grant did was drink. Remember: drunks do not win wars; alcoholics are not elected President of the United States. Had Grant truly been either a drunk or an alcoholic, he would have been replaced early in the war; General Halleck, his superior, certainly looked for excuses to depose him. But Lincoln hung on. “I can’t spare this man, he fights.” And, in the end, Lincoln was proved right.
[…]
there are NO RELIABLE witnesses of any drunkenness on the part of Grant during the Civil War. ” — https://civilwartalk.com/threads/ulysses-s-grant-the-myth-of-his-drinking.74218/


#45

“Well, there was probably a land bridge in what’s now the Bering Strait. Except they probably didn’t come from India precisely, but definitely somewhere in Asia, probably central Asia, just north of India.”

It’s not nearly as stupid a question as it sounds. It was posed for stupid reasons, but it isn’t stupid on its own.


#46

[quote=“paulbeard, post:44, topic:109211”]
On the whole, Grant was a decent, honorable man who has been the victim of rumor mongers and writers who irresponsibly perpetuate the myth that all Grant did was drink. Remember: drunks do not win wars; alcoholics are not elected President of the United States. [/quote]

Before prohibition, America was a nation of drunkards, judging from records of ethanol production. And after prohibition, pißwaßer became the national drink of choice–real ale being too strong for the US liver. A racist prohibitionist could take what is known, and exaggerate as he pleased.

As far as Grant being corrupt, well…

Grant had enemies; they played up his flaws.


#47

This phrase

is doing a lot of work. Grant himself never benefited from any of the corruption, unlike other occupants of the White House.

If nothing else, it suggests that the skills needed to win a war might not be the same ones needed to run a country. Our veneration of military service might not be for the best.


#48

well that sure sounds familiar…


#49

I’m pretty sure you could get him to support building a monument to honour “the guy who shot Hitler”.


#50

Given the present climate, be careful what you wish for.


#51

Citation required.

By modern standards, most of pre-modern Europe was perpetually pissed. Including the generals and politicians.

It’s also a safe bet that the White House has been home to quite a few addicts of varying sorts.


#52

Citation required. there has been a lot of noise about how people drank alcohol/fermented or distilled beverages to avoid polluted water but not much of that seems to hold up.

Further, define alcoholic and name some examples of electeds or commissioned officers who were undeniable examples.

By all accounts Grant had been a tippler, as was common, but was not when he made his contributions to US history. His chief vice was cigars and that killed him.


#53

I can’t imagine what they’d put on Dearborn’s statue.

And I think both sides need more statues of Tecumseh, who was screwed over with empty promises and when the History Reset Button was hit in Belgium at the end of 1814.


#54

So was the genocidal twathead Andrew Jackson…


#55

Yeah but native americans weren’t people until…ever? I mean the government is still ignoring the treaties and stuff we made totally uncoerced with these “sovereign” nations.


#56

The Napoleonic era Royal Navy rum ration was half a pint of OP rum, per man, per day.

That’s for the foremast crew. The officers got that plus their private stores.

Defining addiction is an entire topic in itself.

As for alcoholic US Presidents, Nixon is the most obvious recent example. For a drunk head of state from my neighbourhood, Tony Abbott.

Grant was also apparently quite fond of cocaine, later in his life.

For a recent alcoholic US General, see https://www.salon.com/2012/01/14/us_general_fights_alcoholism_after_public_collapse/


#57

Don’t forget Saddam Hussein.


#58

Churchill was a well known drunkard as well.


#59

He also suffered from bad clinical depression


#60

He’s a fairly interesting historical figure, one of these days i’ll have to see what good Churchill books there are that aren’t a dry read.