2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine (Part 2)

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TTBOMK, Germany will need to approve a transfer of German-build weapons. And FTR, political pressure is very high currently to not only approve of the transfer of heavy weapons from other parties to Ukraine, but to transfer such weapons from German stocks as well.

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POLITICO Europe: The benefits of Russia’s coming disintegration.

Interesting opinion…

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You know… I’m really sick of people who pontificate on foreign affairs rubbing their hands with glee over the pain and suffering caused by failed states… Even if Putin is awful (which he objectively is), that doesn’t make the collapse of his regime and the fall out that will certainly cause chaos and suffering to be ā€œgreatā€ā€¦ It would be great if these things could happen without massive amounts of human suffering…

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At the end the author pedals back from the idea that Russia should break up into separate sovereign states, instead saying that Western governments should support greater autonomy for regional governments.

Rather, a much more effective approach would be to clearly specify what the West supports. Openly backing pluralism, democracy, federalism, civil rights and the autonomy of its republics and regions can help embolden Russia’s citizens by demonstrating they aren’t globally isolated.

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Well, his ideas are nice, but has no one learned no nothing from no history? Does he really think that that is how it will go down and that interventionism is always so smooth? It’s the ā€œwell, it’ll be different THIS timeā€ mindset that gets me… How have these things almost ALWAYS gone? Rarely has reshaping countries worked out well, because it is more often than not, just another form of imperialism. It’s one thing to OFFER whatever help is asked for, quite another to actively impose it.

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It’s a little over-optimistic and tinged with a light version of the PNAC fantasy. For example, in the event of a collapse of the Russian Federation it is China and not the U.S. that will likely rush into the vacuum created in newly independent states to provide aid and infrastructure (with ideological strings attached). This will be especially true if the MAGAts keep pushing the U.S. into an isolationist stance (and/or push the U.S. into a civil war of its own).

A Russian civil war will be extremely ugly and, with the presence of nuclear weapons, dangerous to the rest of the world. It will likely be a more widespread continuation of the current struggle between the military, the warlords, and the siloviki – nasty and anti-democratic parties all. There will be no-one there for any American who subscribes to liberal democracy to root for or support.

The U.S. has to get over the neoCon idea that it can take advantage of (or create) chaos in other countries to shove it’s values down their throats. At the very least, we should start by setting an example for how a pluralistic and equitable and compassionate civil society should work – something we’ve been failing at regularly since Reagan.

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Meme Reaction GIF by Robert E Blackmon

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Don’t count me as a cheerleader for this particular viewpoint, most of what I’m interested in is the possibility that a large percentage of the people, and places, that have been under Russia’s thumb might have a realistic possibility of self determination. That it’s going to be a horrible situation in-between now and that point is unfortunately, well demonstrated by history.

The current situation is not exactly paradise, and there is a definite non zero chance it could end up worse if Russia does implode. However, to be considered as a resource for mineral extraction, cannon fodder, and maybe another holodomor, isn’t what I’d wish on the people there either, and that’s definitely their lot for now.

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Me too… but that doesn’t mean that we should replace Russian imperialism with an American (or Chinese) version.

Sure… I think our goal should be to support any states that come out of a fall out as best we can, not impose what we’d like to see on them. This has long been the major problem of decolonization.

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Count me in with that, I definitely don’t want to see them moved from one empire to another.

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Time for empires to be over! :smile:

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Preach Amy Poehler GIF by Sisters

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Hey France, maybe give them the rocket in a smelted form. :man_shrugging:

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Zelensky should realise this sort of shit does not help their cause. It may be true, but rubbing Putin’s nose in it and potentially embarrassing actual NATO members by saying it out loud is not helpful.

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Enter more cannon fodder:

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