A beginner's guide to the Redpill Right

[popobawa4u]

@DevinC

If you think someone’s a trolley, just don’t feed them.

@milliefink

Meh. Sick burns feel good (even better than downvoting). It’s a goodness that, for me, outweighs the potential badness. And you know what else? They also help to create a sense of community – and it’s not an exclusionary sense of community.

@funruly

I’d rather be judged for mocking wrongheaded behavior than to have my silence construed as complicity.

I would rather that people actually debate matters that they think are important. Debate is community, everything else is cliquey BS.

[DevinC]

@funruly

This is where we fundamentally disagree.

I’d rather be judged for mocking wrongheaded behavior than to have my silence construed as complicity.

There are other options than those two.

Anger is real, anger is important to getting real change done, and I’m absolutely not opposed to that anger being expressed. But sarcasm is tremendously destructive, and bad behaviour gives the other side cover to behave badly.

[Mindysan33]

@punkerul

i will not allow the people who wrote the “SCUM manifesto” brainwash my children in the name of an unproven idea.

One person wrote that. One. She was also a bit off her nut, shot Andy Warhol, and did not identify as a feminist, and in fact rejected any and all attempts to be lumped/co-opted into the category… FYI.

[anon73629133]

@DevinC

There are other options than those two.

Sure, the first option is always engagement and dialogue. We’re not lacking for Devil’s Advocates around these parts.

[Mindysan33]

[edited to add]Oh really Mr. Baratheon! Please, do tell!

[daneel]

@funruly

We’re not lacking for Devil’s Advocates around these parts.

[shaddack]

Some of us cannot read facial expressions with anything vaguely resembling accuracy/reliability.

Could you caption those images, please?

[Mindysan33]

Sure! Sorry about that! Also, it’s additionally funny because his avatar is Robert Baratheon from Game of Thrones, and the gif I posted is of Cersei, his wife who basically arranges to have him killed by boar (I don’t know if you like A song of ice and fire or the show).

[aeon]

@Mindysan33

it was the Brits who claimed/classified the Irish as not being like them, because they were colonizing the place. The irish claimed whiteness in the US, because it benefited them, as a political group.

Also everywhere else the Irish diaspora was forced to migrate to. Which is ironic, because in England we got ‘No dogs, No blacks, No Irish’ and were kept down, but in the colonies had to suck up to the oppressor to succeed and succeeded there by helping oppress indigenous people. Doesn’t poverty suck.

(Not suggesting that the Irish are oppressed in the UK now —other than a bit of anti-ginger bias— but my father’s generation bought it).

[Mindysan33]

Sure. I’m here in part because my family migrated during the lesser famine, but that side of my family retains a strong sense of an Irish identity. But given the instability of racial constructions, what does that even mean now - it’s a cultural designation, more than anything. The Irish in America carved out a space of power, in part through the political machines starting in the 1850s and 1860s (Tammany Hall and all that) and broke that connection with a certain racial classification in a meaningful way - given the continued occupation of Ireland by the British until the 1920s, that wasn’t possible at the same time. By coding the Irish non-white, it provided a space for the British to legitimize their political claims on Ireland.

[OtherMichael]

@Mindysan33

Cersei, his wife who basically arranges to have him killed by boar

O! I just thought it was an inevitable coincidence from drinking and hunting. Hunh.

[OtherMichael]

Nobody likes a Godwinner, so I shan’t Godwin Eenut thread.

Let’s say you find yourself conversing with Heinrich Himmler; you’re not going to change him, he’s not going to listen to you. So just have some bloody fun.

[Mindysan33]

Well, kind of. She was smart enough to know that it was a possibility, at least that’s what I got. I think the book makes it a bit clearer than the show did. I think that’s the advantage of the book, that each chapter is told from one person’s perspective so you get a stronger sense of what they are thinking… less of that in the show, because it’s harder to do that I think.

[popobawa4u]

I can appreciate that. But I have a tiny bit more begrudging respect for people who do things I find abhorrent for their own well-thought-out reasons, rather than those who do something I prefer out of peer pressure. At least they have a position on things! Tribal echo chambers do not encourage as much questioning and introspection.

And no, a begrudging respect at this level does not at all amount to sympathy - I’d still consider Himmler very much an adversary.

[Elusis]

@DevinC

Posts like this are why the Redpill Right has any traction in the first place.

You know, inverting cause and effect is a great way to win arguments.

In your own mind.

[milliefink]

[quote=“popobawa4u, post:480, topic:50898”]
I have a tiny bit more begrudging respect for people who do things I find abhorrent for their own well-thought-out reasons, rather than those who do something I prefer out of peer pressure. At least they have a position on things! [/quote]

You think people give each other high fives (or whatever) around here out of peer pressure? Sheesh, this isn’t high school, and I don’t think anyone that I like to commune with here is still in high school. You clearly see “a sense of community” that’s attainable for many here differently from how I do (and btw, it’s not just one community – bbs is large, it contains multitudes! including multiple, sometimes rather vaguely discernible communities).

Tribal echo chambers do not encourage as much questioning and introspection.

I can of course see the value of questioning and introspection in many conversations. However, when confronted with people who clearly exist at the level of Obstinate Bonehead, and who, worse yet, are clearly acting that way at least in part because of who and what they think I am – when confronted with people like that, I see no reason to even try to “encourage questioning and introspection.” It just ain’t gonna happen, on either side.

[Elusis]

@aeon

I made the point that born in the UK, trying to escape poverty by means of access to training for the professions and being poor, white and male is jointly the worst hand to be dealt along with being poor, black and male.

Citation very much needed.

From this study:

White men are the most likely to be employed:

Christian men are the most likely to be employed:

Every other racial and gender group experiences a pay gap relative to white men, except for Indian and Chinese men, and their “advantage” is statistically insignificant.

So while I can appreciate that your subjective experience might have been that you had it “worst” relative to women and other racial groups (except you keep acknowledging that Black/Caribbean men might have it even worse!), the statistics don’t bear that out. You had it bad, it sounds like, but there are a lot of ways in which it could have been even harder.

[shaddack]

Note the stats are grouped by ethnicity, not by socioeconomic status (which was the added variable in the original argument you are countering). If broken down by that, in addition to ethnicity/gender, a different pattern may appear.

We need some sort of fine-grained data and some nice visualization system that would allow doing queries and showing results as images easier to interpret at-a-glance than a bargraph, or - worse - a table with numbers.

[popobawa4u]

@milliefink

Sheesh, this isn’t high school, and I don’t think anyone that I like to commune with here is still in high school.

I don’t recall saying anything about high school…

It seems to me from talking with people here that peoples socialization into oppressive power relationships isn’t a controversial idea. Just like how most people assume that they know what their local laws are without having read them. Do they learn these things by hanging around with politicians and CEOs? Probably not, they seem to internalize these things by way of their peers. I guess the term has a very specific connotation to you which I didn’t intend.

@milliefink

However, when confronted with people who clearly exist at the level of Obstinate Bonehead, and who, worse yet, are clearly acting that way at least in part because of who and what they think I am – when confronted with people like that, I see no reason to even try to “encourage questioning and introspection.”

Presumption can go both ways. I find that it helps to not be so judgemental of people. Much of the confusion and strife I encounter seems to have roots in contradictory perceptions and goals. So I like to point out those contradictions by not showing them that their professed goals are wrong, but rather that their direction of travel is not taking them to what they state as their destination.

[DevinC]

@Elusis

You know, inverting cause and effect is a great way to win arguments.

In your own mind.

Well, I’ve seen it happen. (It’s not the only cause, certainly.) As the article I linked to before pointed out, people who don’t feel like they’re being heard turn ever-more extreme. They go to safe spaces where they can vent, and then Anil Dash’s fourth law takes over.