This might be one of the only times I say this: religion isn’t that bad. Generally speaking mainstream religions will not demand you donate or buy anything to participate. They may frown on you and treat you differently if you don’t, but they’d be very unlikely to ever say “pay up or stop coming”.
The other thing is the maliciousness with which scientologists are taught to treat family members who’ve woken up and realised what a bunch of utter garbage it all is. I obviously feel for the person who has woken up and is now faced with losing connections to their family, but I also feel sorry for the asshole retards who are still in the “church” as it is the richness of their own lives that is diminished by not knowing and actively rejecting their own kin.
Edit: and FWIW I say this as an ardent atheist who thinks belief in any religion requires you to be a little stupid, or at least ignorant of the glaring contradictions and obvious fallacies that are part of every religious belief.
Before I actually look it up, I’ll just note that the description of Loaded Language sounds very similar to the Thought Terminating Cliche.
Now to ask Wikipedia.
Edit:
And I see that the article section for thought terminating cliche references Robert Jay Lifton, and that Loaded Language is in the links.
The article for Loaded Language describes it as terms that are highly emotionally charged e.g. “Back-breaking labor” and can be used to manipulate people’s emotions rhetorically, whereas it would seem thought terminating Cliches are more about truisms that sound authoritative and are used to both encapsulate and end discussion on a topic e.g. “god doesn’t give us more than we can handle”, obviously wrong, but nonetheless comforting to those who choose to believe it.
Man, I don’t know what your personal experience with those guys has been - just had a former b-i-l who was Sea Org and wanted to find out about it. Didn’t have a lot of negative…anything around them. Never had anybody demand money of me other than to buy a book or something. Could say that about any number of other sects. Or Nobles. Not exactly Jim Jones territory… worked at a government office then, that actually had a guy with a (not even kidding) tin foil hat. So. On a scale of whacked-outness in S. California? They barely even registered.
But, if their words are a bfd and some kind of ‘programming’, then we’d better stay the heck away from rappers, entymologists, 12-steppers, and IT people, too! Because, words.
If you want to see how awful and how crazy they are, check out: http://tonyortega.org/
He’s been following them for a while, and the stories from inside are alternately hilarious and sad.
In my experience, 12-Step programs can have alarming similarities to cults. It’s less formal, in that there’s no enforced participation, and I can’t deny AA is highly effective in helping people who are committed to quitting. The thing is, the religious dogmatism, and the social pressure integral to 12-steps are also common to cults.
I don’t think 12 steps are a bad thing, and they honestly are one of the best tools in substance abuse cessation, but I can’t stand participating in them.
When I was 20, the folks made attending AA conditional to living with them as I had been caught drinking in the house on a few occasions. I hated it, firstly, because I’m an atheist and felt coerced into joining in prayer and religious participation. It was all I could do to behave myself and not openly mock the constant barrage of religious truisms and non-sequitur. Secondly because I’m not an alcoholic, and everyone else there treated me as if I were an addict in denial, instead of a kid being punished for not going to church on Sundays like mom and dad wanted.
This is exactly my point. I have friends of most religious beliefs but I’ve never been asked to buy anything. They give bibles out for free at the train station sometimes. The prices the scientologists sell these books for is far far in excess of their production cost and for an organisation who enjoys tax-exempt status that’s a shitload of profit.
After reviewing the literature, we found that AA may help some people overcome alcoholism, especially if they also get some professional assistance, but the evidence is far from overwhelming, in part because of the nature of the program.
Actually, real therapy is – not surprisingly – far more successful.
It’s a tool, and I am not denying that it’s helped some people, but the belief that it is “the best” thing (or even arguably a good thing?) is funny, isn’t it? When that’s not really true. I personally feel like therapy and even rehab/hospitalization (combined with therapy) for the more serious cases is the best bet – and long term therapy. But that’s not really possible for most people because that shit is expensive, so AA it is.
Cults are about using brainwashing to get people to prioritize the needs of their evil leaders over their own needs and those of wider society. Twelve step programs are about using brainwashing to help people prioritize their own needs and those of wider society over the needs of the drug cartels. Similar methods, because they are effective on people with weakened willpower, but very different ends and goals.
LDoBE - OK, now I’m laughing (not in a mean way). 12-Step has no religious dogma at all- hell, I know they have atheist groups, agnostic groups, wiccan, Native American, + Bill W. alone-knows-how-many-others. Too bad you didn’t know that when you needed to know it? And too bad your old man forced you to sit through something that’s intended to be 100% voluntary and a punishment to no one. That does suck. OTOH - you said you were 20, so it pretty much was voluntary, right?
Teapot - Calling bullshit on ya, friend. Some’ll sell you stuff right at your own front door, if you’re foollish enough to open it. I’m fine with you believing whatever you want…or not. Other groupshave carwashes and bake sales. Some’ll just guilt-trip you into buying your way out of perdition with various donations, and others insist you genitally-mutilate your young (for which I’m sure there is an honorarium or a fee, or whatever). Different strokes - but at least if they sell you a book or a car wash, at least you got something tangible for your cash, no? I object to being forced to pay for NSA-colonics, but nobody cares what I think about that, either. Life’s a bitch, ain’t it?
marilove - TELL me you didn’t just try to use a magazine article to statistically validate your way out of understanding that psychologizing the ill for years on end for big money isn’t bald-faced crappola? (There’s a reason why you don’t earn a Science degree in Psych.) Uhhh sorry they survived, but didn’t do it your preferred way? Frankly, I’ve been around quite a few of those folks. Some people I care a lot about are only here now because of them. Met some awesome people. Woudn’t be surprised if some you think are awesome were members, either. Because, anonymity. (To date, the only reasons I’ve ever seen anybody down on them was either because that person had failed at kicking their own addiction, or was upset because somebody they wished had, hadn’t. Really sorry if that happened to you, but money doesn’t fix that problem.)
I just figure, whatever gets you through the night…if it helps you and doesn’t harm me or somebody who’s helpless… guess hatahs gotta hate? Opine? Negate? And all over a note in the trash that wasn’t…anything? Hey Teapot - Tempest Alert!
I overstated the benefit, and haven’t read as deeply as I should have.
I think I got tripped up with the possibly more accurate statistic that
group therapy has high success rates.
I exaggerated due to thinking about it emotioally as well, and that’s a
problem the Internet exacerbates for me. It’s so easy to say something
online without taking the time to research everything properly.
Did we both read the same article? Because the one I read had AA clocking in right around the same level of success as two forms of therapy. And that would make it one of the best tools, by any objective measure.
The bit about “far from overwhelming” is not a critique of 12-step methods, it’s a critique of the methodology of the study.
Really, because the MS I received in Psychology must be rare then.
“A master’s degree in psychology is a graduate level-degree that generally involves two to three years of study beyond the undergraduate degree. The two most common types of psychology master’s degrees are the Master of Arts (M.A.) and the Master of Science (M.S.).”
So, even ignoring the fact that the entire thing is without any context at all, just what makes this “insane”? Certainly without context it’s seems strange, but that’s what happens when you intentionally take things out of context.
Oh…! That’s right, it’s about Scientology so it’s mandatory that it be ridiculed!
Granted, I think they’re totally nutso-bonkers too, but hey, irrational reporting is Fox’s job.
Not even close, bud. I’m sorry that your folks coerced you into going to meetings; about 99% of the people who hate on AA are people who were forced to go (usually as a result of being required by the courts). But that’s not anything like the sort of shit that groups like $cientology put its members through.
